liz3564 wrote:I think that all of us can agree that the core doctrine of the LDS Church can be found in the Canon (i.e. Scriptures).
Where there seems to be confusion is which tenets are considered "official", and which tenets are merely theories or misunderstandings.
If, as BC pointed out, clarification of official doctrinal tenets are found in anything published specifically by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then I think it makes things pretty clear.
Since the PoGP (including but not limited to the Facsimiles to the BoAbr) are part of that canon of scripture, are the statements made therein official doctrine of COJCOLDS?
BartBurk wrote:I hate to keep sounding this chord, but even if the foundation is invalid, the current leadership could still be receiving revelation from God. It's not impossible to believe God could take a lemon and make it into lemonade. That doesn't make the LDS Church the one true church, but God could still be making something positive out of it.
If so, he's going about it in an unconvincing way. I hate to make the comparison this way, but I've had traveling insurance salesmen make a better pitch than the LDS church pulls off. God, if he's all that he's cracked up to be, should be capable of better.
BartBurk wrote:I kind of like the old saying that "God writes straight with crooked lines." We may not understand it, but as long as the LDS Church continues to teach the atonement and resurrection of Christ along with faith, repentance and baptism, God's bringing some people along that might not get closer some other way. God may not be convincing you through the LDS faith, but that doesn't mean God's not able to use it for good in a way we can't see. I would have to say my active children are closer to God in the LDS faith than they would be if they had no faith at all.
And so the Methodist church too would fit that description, and thus the exclusive claims of COJCOLDS that it is the 'one true church' on the face of the earth is an affront to god, who uses many such churches as tools to teach of Christ and the atonement, right? And so if one was ingrained in Mormonism as the one true church, but then finds problems with it, apostatizes and become non-Christian, maybe even atheist, then actually the pedantic claim of COJCOLDS to be god's only organizational instrument on earth has actually driven some people away from Christianity altogether. But had COJCOLDS just embraced the Christianity aspects and been universalist Christians in their approach as much of the rest of the Christian religion sects are, then such a Mormon apostate might have landed in Methodism, rather than all the way out to atheism (or some non-Christian religion).
DarkHelmet wrote:There is really only one thing in the church that is doctrine. Whatever the current leaders say should be obeyed. All other doctrine flows from that. If Brigham Young said Adam was God, that was doctrine for the members that lived back then. If you were asked by the prophet to take another wife, you needed to follow him. If the prophet asked you not to wear more than one earring, you must follow him. Whatever the prophet has said recently is doctrine. If the prophet hasn't talked about it for years and years, it might not be doctrine anymore.
So, DarkHelmet, your observation basically boils down to Mormonism being an adult version of the childhood game of "Simon says...", right?
sock puppet wrote:But the Making Lemonade Possibility is not something that the FP/12 claim. So while it is in the abstract a possibility, as the FP/12 keep harkening back to JSJr, claiming it to be a Restoration, the lemon remains just that, a lemon.
For those of us outside of the church it will always be at least lemonade without much sweetness to it -- probably much more lemon than lemonade. But for those inside of the church, God can use everything about the Mormon Church to bring them closer. Eventually, in my opinion, that might mean they might have to leave the LDS Church to continue to get closer to God, but that's something I'm not qualified to judge. In my case I decided I had to leave the LDS Church.
sock puppet wrote:And so the Methodist church too would fit that description, and thus the exclusive claims of COJCOLDS that it is the 'one true church' on the face of the earth is an affront to god, who uses many such churches as tools to teach of Christ and the atonement, right? And so if one was ingrained in Mormonism as the one true church, but then finds problems with it, apostatizes and become non-Christian, maybe even atheist, then actually the pedantic claim of COJCOLDS to be god's only organizational instrument on earth has actually driven some people away from Christianity altogether. But had COJCOLDS just embraced the Christianity aspects and been universalist Christians in their approach as much of the rest of the Christian religion sects are, then such a Mormon apostate might have landed in Methodism, rather than all the way out to atheism (or some non-Christian religion).
In some way all of our churches are an affront to God because none of them is perfect. I believe the Catholic Church to have been founded directly by Jesus Christ in a direct line of succession, but there have been those within the Catholic Church who have done things which God hates. I think it would be a hard to prove the claim that the LDS Church drove people away from God more than other churches have. There are people from all Christian churches who have wound up rejecting Christianity, not just the LDS. I'm sure there are a lot of ex-Methodist atheists just like there are a lot of ex-atheist Methodists!
sock puppet wrote:And so the Methodist church too would fit that description, and thus the exclusive claims of COJCOLDS that it is the 'one true church' on the face of the earth is an affront to god, who uses many such churches as tools to teach of Christ and the atonement, right? And so if one was ingrained in Mormonism as the one true church, but then finds problems with it, apostatizes and become non-Christian, maybe even atheist, then actually the pedantic claim of COJCOLDS to be god's only organizational instrument on earth has actually driven some people away from Christianity altogether. But had COJCOLDS just embraced the Christianity aspects and been universalist Christians in their approach as much of the rest of the Christian religion sects are, then such a Mormon apostate might have landed in Methodism, rather than all the way out to atheism (or some non-Christian religion).
In some way all of our churches are an affront to God because none of them is perfect. I believe the Catholic Church to have been founded directly by Jesus Christ in a direct line of succession, but there have been those within the Catholic Church who have done things which God hates. I think it would be a hard to prove the claim that the LDS Church drove people away from God more than other churches have. There are people from all Christian churches who have wound up rejecting Christianity, not just the LDS. I'm sure there are a lot of ex-Methodist atheists just like there are a lot of ex-atheist Methodists!
But it might be only COJCOLDS and Catholicism that drove people away from Christianity due to each religion's claim to be the only true church, with necessary authority to conduct saving ordinances.
Fortunately, the Church has a plethora of official doctrine for you to peruse.
And will only change those parts when and as shown to be impossible?
Very little has changed in decades. The doctrine remains the doctrine and even perennial favorites such as plural marriage and the priesthood ban are still unchanged doctrine.
sock puppet wrote:But it might be only COJCOLDS and Catholicism that drove people away from Christianity due to each religion's claim to be the only true church, with necessary authority to conduct saving ordinances.
I've read about too many Protestants who became atheists to believe that.