OMG, Time Flies! I've been a secret apostate for years now!

[_Darth J]

That's funny, because when I was 7 years old, and I believed that the presents I got on Christmas morning came from Santa Claus, it made me really happy, too.

Yeah I know what you mean.

The only problem was that Santa was objectively observable as being your parents and you only got stuff from him.

My God is not objectively observable and gives me a lot more than "stuff".

Is the existence of a thousand-year pre-Columbian Hebrew civilization objectively observable?

Is the meaning of the writing on Egyptian papyri objectively observable?

Is homo sapiens originating in Missouri in 6,000 B.C.E. objectively observable?

Is the Earth being turned into an ocean circa 5,000 years ago objectively observable?

Is the person whom you are supposed to believe about seeing and talking to God repeatedly changing his story objectively observable?

Is masturbation turning people gay objectively observable?

Is the one true church by its own figures spending a fraction on humanitarian aid what it spends on a mall objectively observable?

Is the one true church buying a motel where poor people live and then kicking them out right before Christmas to let the land lay vacant while it figures out what commercial use to put it to objectively observable?

Is the church and its leaders being disingenuous in the media about its history objectively observable?

[_LDSToronto]

The TBMs I know here are:

mfb
bcspace
ldsfaqs
mentalgymnast
Radex
subgenius

They tend to be in three camps:

1. Cherry-picking rationalizers.
2. Right-wing fanatics.
3. All of the above.

Interesting. Which was I again?

4. Inconsequential

H.

[_LDSToronto]

That's funny, because when I was 7 years old, and I believed that the presents I got on Christmas morning came from Santa Claus, it made me really happy, too.

Yeah I know what you mean.

The only problem was that Santa was objectively observable as being your parents and you only got stuff from him.

My God is not objectively observable and gives me a lot more than "stuff".

If your God gives you no stuff, then he gives you nothing, correct?

H.

[_mfbukowski]

Is the existence of a thousand-year pre-Columbian Hebrew civilization objectively observable?

Is the meaning of the writing on Egyptian papyri objectively observable?

Is homo sapiens originating in Missouri in 6,000 B.C.E. objectively observable?

Is the Earth being turned into an ocean circa 5,000 years ago objectively observable?

Is the person whom you are supposed to believe about seeing and talking to God repeatedly changing his story objectively observable?

Is masturbation turning people gay objectively observable?

Is the one true church by its own figures spending a fraction on humanitarian aid what it spends on a mall objectively observable?

Is the one true church buying a motel where poor people live and then kicking them out right before Christmas to let the land lay vacant while it figures out what commercial use to put it to objectively observable?

Is the church and its leaders being disingenuous in the media about its history objectively observable?

Is your argument objectively observable? I can't seem to find one here.

[_schreech]

Is your argument objectively observable? I can't seem to find one here.

LOL...just the fact that you are comparing your "god" to Santa Clause is enough to make me think you are a loon even though I think the comparison is perfect...You, accidentally, proved everything that the atheists on this site have been saying. How do you feel about unicorns? Are they "objectively observable"?

[Guest]

Is the existence of a thousand-year pre-Columbian Hebrew civilization objectively observable?

Is the meaning of the writing on Egyptian papyri objectively observable?

Is homo sapiens originating in Missouri in 6,000 B.C.E. objectively observable?

Is the Earth being turned into an ocean circa 5,000 years ago objectively observable?

Is the person whom you are supposed to believe about seeing and talking to God repeatedly changing his story objectively observable?

Is masturbation turning people gay objectively observable?

Is the one true church by its own figures spending a fraction on humanitarian aid what it spends on a mall objectively observable?

Is the one true church buying a motel where poor people live and then kicking them out right before Christmas to let the land lay vacant while it figures out what commercial use to put it to objectively observable?

Is the church and its leaders being disingenuous in the media about its history objectively observable?

Is your argument objectively observable? I can't seem to find one here.

You said that it is objectively observable that belief in Santa Claus is mistaken, because it can be falsified by the objectively observable fact of one's parents putting out presents on Christmas Eve.

"Your God," whom you say is not objectively observable, appears to give you lots of stuff. Part of that stuff is the LDS Church, in your belief structure. So if belief in presents on Christmas morning originating with Santa can be shown to be mistaken because objectively observable evidence disproves that belief, then attributing the LDS Church to the LDS God can also be shown to be mistaken because objectively observable evidence disproves that belief.

[_Yoda]

Of course, this is what happens when you tell rule-followers and perfectionists things like this. Are we really surprised that certain personality types take this stuff seriously?

I'm not.

We cannot blame the church for certain personality types. Perfectionists also have a tough time at work as they strive to be perfect. It is also a problem in the home as the perfectionist expect perfection in the home: dishes washed, dusting, vacuuming etc. Perfectionists tend to be clean freaks like felix unger. Such are the way perfectionists are.

However, I think that it is worth noting that the Mormon culture both encourages and rewards perfectionism. I think that, women, in particular, have a rough time with this, because we are constantly encouraged to be the care givers, to think of ourselves last, not complain, etc. Women have a nurturing instictive, anyway, so when you add the constant pressure of perfection, it is overwhelming. You feel that if your kids aren't dressed impeccably, sitting quietly in Sacrament Meeting, after eating a breakfast of homemade bread from wheat you ground yourself, you are somehow a failure! LOL

Of course, I am exaggerating a bit here, but it is funny because there is truth behind the exaggeration. All of us who have been in Relief Society have felt this at one point or another.

[_just me]

What's interesting to me is that in the course of my journey I actually became MORE hardcore at first. I stopped watching all television. I stopped listening to all secular music and would only listen to Christian worship and hymns and other church type music.

I had a prayer in my heart every second of every day. I was repenting constantly for every negative emotion or word that I might have. I read the scriptures for HOURS a day trying to discover what God wanted from me.

I honestly thought that if I was worthy I could see the face of God, literally, in the same way the brother of Jared did. Or, at very least, the 3 Nephites would show up at my door.

I am so not even kidding.

Why did I think those things? Well, I got all those ideas from the LDS church.

[_Darth J]

We cannot blame the church for certain personality types. Perfectionists also have a tough time at work as they strive to be perfect. It is also a problem in the home as the perfectionist expect perfection in the home: dishes washed, dusting, vacuuming etc. Perfectionists tend to be clean freaks like felix unger. Such are the way perfectionists are.

How ridiculous to blame the Church for such things!

Julie B. Beck, October 2007 General Conference

Mothers who know are nurturers. This is their special assignment and role under the plan of happiness. To nurture means to cultivate, care for, and make grow. Therefore, mothers who know create a climate for spiritual and temporal growth in their homes. Another word for nurturing is homemaking. Homemaking includes cooking, washing clothes and dishes, and keeping an orderly home. Home is where women have the most power and influence; therefore, Latter-day Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world. Working beside children in homemaking tasks creates opportunities to teach and model qualities children should emulate. Nurturing mothers are knowledgeable, but all the education women attain will avail them nothing if they do not have the skill to make a home that creates a climate for spiritual growth. Growth happens best in a “house of order,” and women should pattern their homes after the Lord’s house (see D&C 109). Nurturing requires organization, patience, love, and work. Helping growth occur through nurturing is truly a powerful and influential role bestowed on women.

[_just me]

The real problem is that the LDS church tells you all this shiz you need to do but they fail to address HOW to do it. How to function. How to overcome real life issues.

Mostly, we all sit there wondering why everyone else can handle it and we can't. I have yet to meet a Mormon who says they *know* they are going to the Celestial Kingdom.