My First Encounters with Institutional Mormonism

[_brade]

"You native Americans who are called Indians--who are you? Where did you come from?..

...The Book of Mormon tells how your forefathers came from Jerusalem about 600 years before the birth of Jesus Christ."

Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1974.

Principal ancestors.

prin·ci·pal [prin-suh-puhl]
adjective

1. first or highest in rank, importance, value, etc.; chief; foremost.

Cool. Where does that pamphlet published by the Church tells us the native Americans called Indians came from?

[_Darth J]

Yes, well I'm still wondering when this...

Mormons believe that there are genetic ties between Native Americans and Middle Eastern populations.

...became doctrine.

I can see your point, since the DNA science requires homo sapiens to have been living and dying for tens of thousands of years before the time that two Missourians became the parents of the human race.

I suppose one might argue that by implication, but even before your own apostasy, the Church published Sorensen's work as a plausible explanation an LDS person might accept and not be in conflict with doctrine (else the Church wouldn't have published it).

That would be the Sorensen article authored by a person who was not a General Authority and that explicitly stated it was not the Church's position. Meanwhile, the printed talks by General Authorities like Mark E. Petersen, who said that the Hill Cumorah where Joseph Smith found the plates and the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon are one and the same, contain no such disclaimers.

DNA is not even a factor in Book of Mormon historicity.

Because if there is one thing we know from human history, it's that a technologically and socially advanced agricultural civilization with professional soldiers tends to be out-bred and overrun by a hunter-gatherer society of lazy people in loincloths.

[_ldsfaqs]

Mormons had LONG known that most natives of the America's were of Asiatic decent.

"You native Americans who are called Indians--who are you? Where did you come from?..

...The Book of Mormon tells how your forefathers came from Jerusalem about 600 years before the birth of Jesus Christ."

Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1974.

The Church preaching about "some" of one's Forefathers, as it relates to the Gospel, is not the Church being in error.
I completely agree with the article.

Further, I can easily debunk your claim/interpretation. What about the Jaredites?
What about the "other" peoples that the Book of Mormon mentions that clearly were here outside of the Nephites?
You can pervert the truth all you want, taking this article OUT OF CONTEXT of the entire Gospel, but that just makes you the anti-mormon liar you are.

[_Fence Sitter]

Hey LDS,

Thus, either way you cute it, anti-mormon claims concerning the DNA is ONE BIG LIE!!!!

Are you suggesting that an anti-Mormon is appealing, delightful, and charming while they lie?

Peace,
Ceeboo

Thanks for the laugh Ceeboo!

[_Stormy Waters]

No, you can't make the same claim, because I'm both a convert and a basic believer/apologist who THEN became anti-mormon.

I'm at minimum One Step ahead of you all, not to mention being a convert also, which means I have a more objective and experienced background.

It doesn't matter how many times you jumped the fence back and forth, it doesn't give your arguments any special place. They still must stand on their own merit. You're still just making a naked "appeal to authority."

[_brade]

Having been an anti-mormon..... I simply now know more than you.

Anyone who was once a apologist could make the same claim. Except most of them don't seem to have the need to mention it in every other post. Also this is a naked "appeal to authority" expect in this case the authority is yourself.

No, you can't make the same claim, because I'm both a convert and a basic believer/apologist who THEN became anti-mormon.

I'm at minimum One Step ahead of you all, not to mention being a convert also, which means I have a more objective and experienced background.

But I'm 9000 steps ahead of you. See, I've been a member of every religion ever 10 times each. I've been a Mormon 100 times and an anti-mormon 101 times. Also, I've read all the books and all the websites. Also, my G.I. Joes can fly and have infinite lighting power. Therefore, I win and I know more than you.

[_Darth J]

"You native Americans who are called Indians--who are you? Where did you come from?..

...The Book of Mormon tells how your forefathers came from Jerusalem about 600 years before the birth of Jesus Christ."

Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1974.

Principal ancestors.

prin·ci·pal [prin-suh-puhl]
adjective

1. first or highest in rank, importance, value, etc.; chief; foremost.

Oh, look: it's Gordon B. Hinckley's book, Truth Restored. Since it is published by the Church, the following is official doctrine:

http://www.LDS.org/manual/truth-restore ... d?lang=eng

The second general conference of the Church was held in September, 1830. Among matters of business was the call of Oliver Cowdery to undertake a mission “into the wilderness, through the western states, and to the Indian territory.” Peter Whitmer, Parley P. Pratt, and Ziba Peterson were later called to accompany him. This mission charted much of the future history of the Church.

In October the four men left their families and set out on foot. Near the city of Buffalo they met with members of the Catteraugus Indian tribe, to whom they told the story of the Book of Mormon, explaining that it contained a history of their forefathers.

http://www.LDS.org/manual/truth-restore ... t?lang=eng

Respect for the natives arose out of the Book of Mormon. This volume declares that the Indians are descendants of Israel. Their progenitors are known in that volume as the Lamanites, and, in a prophetic vein, the book speaks of a hopeful future for these people.

[Guest]

Thus, either way you cut it, anti-mormon claims concerning the DNA somehow "debunking Mormonism" is ONE BIG LIE!!!!

ldsfaqs,

You need to be careful when you characterize the evidence backed consensus of the scientific community on the issue of pre-Columbian New World DNA as just one big lie.

You look especially silly making this claim when better and more precise the analytical techniques become available(especially for mtDNA) and continually provide yet more evidence that supports the consensus scientific view. This view is that there were no contributions to the pre-Columbian genome by trans-oceanic migrations. If the Lehites even existed (and there is no evidence whatsoever that the ever did), they certainly did not make it to the New World before Columbus.

Here is an article that explains, in very simple terms, what is going on here. If you do not wish to actually read about the scientific findings that contradict your unfounded belief, then perhaps a look at the picture below will help.

This is a graphic put together by Dr. Southernton that shows that, in direct contradiction of LDS Church claims for more than 150 years, the Polynesians are not related to the "Lamanites" of the New World. There is no New World DNA (and hence no "Lamanite" DNA) in any of the Polynesian native populations.

This finding alone shows that the whole Book of Mormon narrative, as well as published revelations, claims and statements by prophets of the Church and Church leaders, and the tall tales told by LDS missionaries to the Polynesian people, were all (and I don't know how else to put this) lies. There was not, and is not, a scintilla of truth in these claims.

[_brade]

ldsfaqs, I forgot to remind you that I proved you a liar through maths, science, logic, and the Holy Ghost, times infinity. Therefore, you lose. Sorry.

[_Darth J]

Further, I can easily debunk your claim/interpretation. What about the Jaredites?

Are you positing that the Tower of Babel happened 11,000 to 19,000 years before the time that Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden, since that is what would be required for the Jaredites to account for the Asian DNA?

What about the "other" peoples that the Book of Mormon mentions that clearly were here outside of the Nephites?

You're right. Please cite your favorite verse(s) that talks (or talk) about the millions of natives who were already in America and who interbred with the children of Lehi.