Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Kevin Graham »

On a side note, what did Republicans do in 2011 that improved the economy?


Brackite kept bringing this up in the past trying to attribute the slight improvement in unemployment with actions taken by the Republican congress, but I asked him what legislation they had passed that affected unemployment and he never did respond.

You see Brackite, it isn't enough to just say unemployment slightly improved, therefore a Republican congress should get the credit. You have to actually show the cause for this.

So since you keep repeating this nonsense, I'll keep repeating the same question. What pro-employment legislation did this Republican congress pass in 2009?

The sad fact is that the only thing the Republicans have ever tried to do to help employment is to drop taxes on the wealthy. That's it. That is their universal solution that they keep pitching during election time. But we know this doesn't work. It never did. Businesses do not hire more people when they get tax breaks. That is Right Wing myth created by those who will benefit most from such tax breaks.

Businesses hire more people when there is a reason to do so. And that happens when consumer spending is up, which only happens when consumers have more money to spend. Hence, the purpose behind the stimulus and tax breaks for the working class. Giving tax breaks to billionaires does nothing for employment. They just pocket the money. Republicans have it backwards and always have.
_Brackite
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Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Brackite »

I will try to get to what James Bond stated here later.
Anyway, I have been thinking lately that it might be better for the Conservative movement overall if President Barack Obama wins re-election later this year. We have a weak field of GOP candidates for President this time around. I am thinking that Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky will Probably be a great GOP Candidate for President in 2016.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_EAllusion
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Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _EAllusion »

Brackite wrote:I will try to get to what James Bond stated here later.
Anyway, I have been thinking lately that it might be better for the Conservative movement overall if President Barack Obama wins re-election later this year. We have a weak field of GOP candidates for President this time around. I am thinking that Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky will Probably be a great GOP Candidate for President in 2016.

If the Democrats can hold onto power up to 2016, the economy is expected to be doing really well at that point barring some unforeseen geopolitical catastrophe. That's going to be an uphill battle to fight for whoever isn't in power, as economic trends explain a decent % of the outcome of presidential elections all by themselves. That's because people's intuitive sense of how things are going plays a large role in determining the direction persuadable voters will go and economic trends loom large in determining that sense. This, of course, is ridiculous since these outcomes are primarily driven by a variety of factors that don't trace back to what political leaders are doing that their counterparts wouldn't, but it is voter behavior 101. Whomever wins the Whitehouse this time is going to be taking credit for what likely is to be a solid economy next time.

I recommend this New Yorker piece on voter behavior leading into the Bush vs. Kerry election.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/0 ... at_atlarge

The short of it is that most people vote for reasons that are only connected to the ideological content of politicians in very loose ways.
_Bond James Bond
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Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Brackite wrote:I am thinking that Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky will Probably be a great GOP Candidate for President in 2016.


If Rand Paul truly is the ideological heir to his father he'll top out at around 20%-25% of Republicans, particularly on foreign policy and will not be a viable candidate for that reason.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Brackite
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Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Brackite »

Bond James Bond wrote: ...
On another side note, California was governed by a Republican, Schwarzenegger, from Nov 2003 to Jan 2011. Does he get no blame for California's 11% unemployment or does it get hung around California's current governor, Jerry Brown, the same way President Bush Jr.'s economy was hung around the neck of Obama like an anchor?



Former Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of California fully supported President Barack Obama's Stimulus Package for his State.

Schwarzenegger calls stimulus plan 'terrific': (February 22nd, 2009):
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... -terrific/

Schwarzenegger To GOP Governors: Give Me Your Unwanted Stimulus Money: (3/25/09):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/2 ... 68918.html

White House turns to data and Schwarzenegger to defend stimulus: (10/30/09):
http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat ... d-stimulus

Schwarzenegger highlights benefits of 1-year-old federal stimulus package: (Feb. 17, 2010):
http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/02/17/120 ... ear-old-f/

California received more money from the federal stimulus package than any other state. On its first anniversary today, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger emphasized the benefits of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

Schwarzenegger said California will benefit from $80 billion in federal stimulus money.

...



Schwarzenegger Backs Obama on Health Care, Stimulus: (Feb 23, 2010):
http://www.newser.com/story/81569/schwa ... mulus.html



When the Stimulus Package was signed by President Barack Obama back in February of 2009, California's unemployment rate was at 10.5%. Now California's unemployment rate is at 11.1%.
The Following is From Yahoo News:

Report: Los Angeles spent $70 million in stimulus funds to create 7.76 jobs

By John Cook | The Upshot – Fri, Sep 17, 2010

A new piece of evidence has emerged in the debate over the effectiveness of President Obama's 2009 stimulus package, and it's not good for Democrats. According to two newly released audits performed by the Los Angeles controller, L.A. spent enormous portions of the $594 million in stimulus funds it received on projects that created or saved just a handful of jobs. All told, the audits — available here and here [pdf] — examined $111 million in stimulus spending by the city's Department of Transportation and Department of Public Works, and found that the money went to projects that created or retained just 54 jobs. That works out to roughly $2 million per job.

The $71 million that went to the Department of Public Works, which funded 15 road-surfacing and similar projects, was projected to save or create 238 jobs. But according to the audit, the money created just 7.76 jobs — or slightly more than $10 million per new job — and saved 37.7 (the fractions are a result of calculating the number of jobs by hours worked). The Department of Transportation's $40 million created or retained just nine jobs, the audit found.

In a press release accompanying the audits [pdf], L.A. Controller Wendy Greuel said the job numbers were underwhelming. "I'm disappointed that we've only created or retained 55 jobs after receiving $111 million in [stimulus] funds," Greuel said. "With our local unemployment rate over 12 percent, we need to do a better job cutting the red tape and putting Angelenos back to work."

The audit didn't find any misspent funds or waste. But the breakdown of how some of the money was spent seems to indicate efficiency was not exactly the order of the day for project managers. The Department of Transportation, for instance, spent $9 million to install new LED lightbulbs in traffic lights at 1,800 intersections. Less the $228,000 in labor costs associated with the project, that's nearly $5,000 per location to change lightbulbs. Another project spent $4 million to install 65 new left-turn arrows, averaging more than $61,500 per arrow.



Link: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/repo ... funds.html



Solyndra, a company based within California, was supposed to create several thousands of ‘Green Jobs' within California.
However, After having received over a half-billion dollars in stimulus money, Solyndra ended up going bankrupt.
The Following is From Bloomberg Businessweek:

Solyndra files for bankruptcy, looks for buyer

NEW YORK


A California solar panel manufacturer that received more than a half-billion dollars in government loan guarantees filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy Tuesday and plans to seek a buyer for the company.

Solyndra LLC, based in Fremont, Calif., becomes the latest in a series of failures in the U.S. solar business, which has been beset by oversupply and competition from abroad.

The company, which makes unique solar tubes that can soak up sunlight from many different angles, has struggled recently to raise capital as the economy soured. Investors turned away from solar companies as profit margins were squeezed by declining prices for solar wafers and rising supplies. Experts also expressed doubt about the future of government incentive programs.

Solyndra owes $783.8 million, including loans of $527.8 million to the federal government, according to documents filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware.

Solyndra said in its filing that it would look for a suitor to buy the entire company out of bankruptcy, and if it couldn't, it would liquidate its assets piecemeal to pay creditors.

The company announced last week that it would seek bankruptcy protection and lay off 1,100 workers, virtually its entire workforce. Lawmakers used the announcement to criticize President Barack Obama's support for green technologies.

Solyndra, once considered a rising star in the solar industry, received $535 million in loan guarantees and $1 billion in private investment. Obama visited the company last year, as did other officials, including former California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Energy Secretary Steven Chu.

Two other prominent solar companies, Evergreen Solar Inc. and Spectrawatt Inc., both sought bankruptcy protection in August. Spectrawatt's CEO said the company could not compete with solar manufacturers in China, which receive "considerable government and financial support."

Former Solyndra employees filed a class-action lawsuit against the company in response to the bankruptcy, saying that Solyndra failed to properly notify them. They're seeking extra wages and benefits, according to a separate complaint filed with the bankruptcy court.



Link: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financia ... J89JG0.htm




The Following is from the Los Angeles Times:

Obama advisors raised warning flags before Solyndra bankruptcy

Treasury chief Timothy F. Geithner and others were worried that the selection process for federal loan guarantees fell short and raised the risk that funds could be going to the wrong firms.

...

By Tom Hamburger, Kim Geiger and Matea Gold,
Washington Bureau

September 26, 2011, 6:35 p.m.



Reporting from Washington— Long before the politically connected California solar firm Solyndra went bankrupt, President Obama was warned by his top economic advisors about the financial and political risks of the Energy Department loan guarantee program that boosted the company's rapid ascent.

At a White House meeting in late October, Lawrence H. Summers, then director of the National Economic Council, and Timothy F. Geithner, the Treasury secretary, expressed concerns that the selection process for federal loan guarantees wasn't rigorous enough and raised the risk that funds could be going to the wrong companies, including ones that didn't need the help.

Energy Secretary Steven Chu, also at the meeting, had a different view. Under pressure from Congress to speed up the loans, he wanted less scrutiny from the Treasury Department and the Office of Management and Budget, or OMB.

The divisions foreshadowed a question that has emerged since Solyndra's bankruptcy: Was the program's vetting process thorough enough? The disagreements also spotlighted an issue that has confronted Obama since he took office: What is the appropriate role of the government in stimulating the private marketplace?

Skeptics, noting that taxpayers could now be on the hook for $527 million the federal government loaned Solyndra, said the administration would have been better off making greater use of market incentives, not individual company loan guarantees.

"It was completely predictable that there would be a colossal failure among the bets," said one person familiar with the internal debate.

Defending the program as an overall success, administration officials say that the $17 billion in loan guarantees now on track to go to 30 companies will help double renewable energy generation in Obama's first term.

The program that funded Solyndra is set to expire at the end of the month, and the White House is pushing to provide more green-energy loan guarantees through other initiatives and keep the U.S. competitive globally. The Chinese government, the Energy Department says, last year committed $30 billion to solar-panel manufacturers.

Almost immediately after the 2008 election, Obama advisors began debating how to create jobs while reducing the nation's reliance on fossil fuels. Some advisors pushed to expand a George W. Bush administration loan-guarantee initiative to help green-energy companies launch commercially. Others were philosophically opposed to providing help to individual companies and warned against betting taxpayer money on inherently risky ventures.

Nevertheless, the administration went forward with the loan guarantee program as part of the 2009 stimulus law. High-level disagreements on the program continued.

...



Link: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 8311.story



The Democratic Party has controlled both the State Assembly and the State Senate in California since 1996.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Bond James Bond wrote:
Brackite wrote:During the November 2010 midterm elections when the Democrats still controlled the House of Representatives, the unemployment rate for the Nation was as high as 9.8%. Now that the Republicans have controlled the House of Representatives for quite a while, the unemployment rate for the Nation is down to 8.5%. (1)
1. http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000


Brackite,

Unemployment was at 9.8% after a major recession. If the stimulus packaged hadn't been released in February 2009 unemployment numbers would have been far worse. Easily unemployment might have slipped into double digits, 10-13% if not for the stimulus package. See this graph:

Image

Now as you can see under Obama job losses were high during 2009. But they actually peaked out (in the negative) and were headed in a positive direction after the stimulus package in February 2009. Now imagine if that stimulus had not been released in 2009 and job losses continued to increase negatively. Instead of peaking out at months of 800k losses we might have had months where we lost 1 million jobs, 1.2 million, 1.3 million. Basically assume that the stimulus package was an enormous plug that was stuck in the biggest hole of the failing dam. We still were leaking jobs from our economy, but it blocked a total failure.


Care to respond to my macro-argument Brackite? Look at that graph and explain to me how the stimulus didn't have some positive effect. Is that graph not accurate? Does it not appear that the economy is doing better since Feb 2009?


On a side note, what did Republicans do in 2011 that improved the economy?


And respond to this too. Legislation? Or was the great gridlock of 2011 good for the economy?
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Brackite wrote:
Bond James Bond wrote: ...
On another side note, California was governed by a Republican, Schwarzenegger, from Nov 2003 to Jan 2011. Does he get no blame for California's 11% unemployment or does it get hung around California's current governor, Jerry Brown, the same way President Bush Jr.'s economy was hung around the neck of Obama like an anchor?



Former Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of California fully supported President Barack Obama's Stimulus Package for his State.

Schwarzenegger calls stimulus plan 'terrific': (February 22nd, 2009):
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... -terrific/

Schwarzenegger To GOP Governors: Give Me Your Unwanted Stimulus Money: (3/25/09):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/2 ... 68918.html

White House turns to data and Schwarzenegger to defend stimulus: (10/30/09):
http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat ... d-stimulus

Schwarzenegger highlights benefits of 1-year-old federal stimulus package: (Feb. 17, 2010):
http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/02/17/120 ... ear-old-f/

California received more money from the federal stimulus package than any other state. On its first anniversary today, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger emphasized the benefits of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

Schwarzenegger said California will benefit from $80 billion in federal stimulus money.

...



Schwarzenegger Backs Obama on Health Care, Stimulus: (Feb 23, 2010):
http://www.newser.com/story/81569/schwa ... mulus.html



When the Stimulus Package was signed by President Barack Obama back in February of 2009, California's unemployment rate was at 10.5%. Now California's unemployment rate is at 11.1%.
The Following is From Yahoo News:

Report: Los Angeles spent $70 million in stimulus funds to create 7.76 jobs

By John Cook | The Upshot – Fri, Sep 17, 2010

A new piece of evidence has emerged in the debate over the effectiveness of President Obama's 2009 stimulus package, and it's not good for Democrats. According to two newly released audits performed by the Los Angeles controller, L.A. spent enormous portions of the $594 million in stimulus funds it received on projects that created or saved just a handful of jobs. All told, the audits — available here and here [pdf] — examined $111 million in stimulus spending by the city's Department of Transportation and Department of Public Works, and found that the money went to projects that created or retained just 54 jobs. That works out to roughly $2 million per job.

The $71 million that went to the Department of Public Works, which funded 15 road-surfacing and similar projects, was projected to save or create 238 jobs. But according to the audit, the money created just 7.76 jobs — or slightly more than $10 million per new job — and saved 37.7 (the fractions are a result of calculating the number of jobs by hours worked). The Department of Transportation's $40 million created or retained just nine jobs, the audit found.

In a press release accompanying the audits [pdf], L.A. Controller Wendy Greuel said the job numbers were underwhelming. "I'm disappointed that we've only created or retained 55 jobs after receiving $111 million in [stimulus] funds," Greuel said. "With our local unemployment rate over 12 percent, we need to do a better job cutting the red tape and putting Angelenos back to work."

The audit didn't find any misspent funds or waste. But the breakdown of how some of the money was spent seems to indicate efficiency was not exactly the order of the day for project managers. The Department of Transportation, for instance, spent $9 million to install new LED lightbulbs in traffic lights at 1,800 intersections. Less the $228,000 in labor costs associated with the project, that's nearly $5,000 per location to change lightbulbs. Another project spent $4 million to install 65 new left-turn arrows, averaging more than $61,500 per arrow.



Link: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/repo ... funds.html



Solyndra, a company based within California, was supposed to create several thousands of ‘Green Jobs' within California.
However, After having received over a half-billion dollars in stimulus money, Solyndra ended up going bankrupt.
The Following is From Bloomberg Businessweek:

Solyndra files for bankruptcy, looks for buyer

NEW YORK


A California solar panel manufacturer that received more than a half-billion dollars in government loan guarantees filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy Tuesday and plans to seek a buyer for the company.

Solyndra LLC, based in Fremont, Calif., becomes the latest in a series of failures in the U.S. solar business, which has been beset by oversupply and competition from abroad.

The company, which makes unique solar tubes that can soak up sunlight from many different angles, has struggled recently to raise capital as the economy soured. Investors turned away from solar companies as profit margins were squeezed by declining prices for solar wafers and rising supplies. Experts also expressed doubt about the future of government incentive programs.

Solyndra owes $783.8 million, including loans of $527.8 million to the federal government, according to documents filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware.

Solyndra said in its filing that it would look for a suitor to buy the entire company out of bankruptcy, and if it couldn't, it would liquidate its assets piecemeal to pay creditors.

The company announced last week that it would seek bankruptcy protection and lay off 1,100 workers, virtually its entire workforce. Lawmakers used the announcement to criticize President Barack Obama's support for green technologies.

Solyndra, once considered a rising star in the solar industry, received $535 million in loan guarantees and $1 billion in private investment. Obama visited the company last year, as did other officials, including former California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Energy Secretary Steven Chu.

Two other prominent solar companies, Evergreen Solar Inc. and Spectrawatt Inc., both sought bankruptcy protection in August. Spectrawatt's CEO said the company could not compete with solar manufacturers in China, which receive "considerable government and financial support."

Former Solyndra employees filed a class-action lawsuit against the company in response to the bankruptcy, saying that Solyndra failed to properly notify them. They're seeking extra wages and benefits, according to a separate complaint filed with the bankruptcy court.



Link: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financia ... J89JG0.htm




The Following is from the Los Angeles Times:

Obama advisors raised warning flags before Solyndra bankruptcy

Treasury chief Timothy F. Geithner and others were worried that the selection process for federal loan guarantees fell short and raised the risk that funds could be going to the wrong firms.

...

By Tom Hamburger, Kim Geiger and Matea Gold,
Washington Bureau

September 26, 2011, 6:35 p.m.



Reporting from Washington— Long before the politically connected California solar firm Solyndra went bankrupt, President Obama was warned by his top economic advisors about the financial and political risks of the Energy Department loan guarantee program that boosted the company's rapid ascent.

At a White House meeting in late October, Lawrence H. Summers, then director of the National Economic Council, and Timothy F. Geithner, the Treasury secretary, expressed concerns that the selection process for federal loan guarantees wasn't rigorous enough and raised the risk that funds could be going to the wrong companies, including ones that didn't need the help.

Energy Secretary Steven Chu, also at the meeting, had a different view. Under pressure from Congress to speed up the loans, he wanted less scrutiny from the Treasury Department and the Office of Management and Budget, or OMB.

The divisions foreshadowed a question that has emerged since Solyndra's bankruptcy: Was the program's vetting process thorough enough? The disagreements also spotlighted an issue that has confronted Obama since he took office: What is the appropriate role of the government in stimulating the private marketplace?

Skeptics, noting that taxpayers could now be on the hook for $527 million the federal government loaned Solyndra, said the administration would have been better off making greater use of market incentives, not individual company loan guarantees.

"It was completely predictable that there would be a colossal failure among the bets," said one person familiar with the internal debate.

Defending the program as an overall success, administration officials say that the $17 billion in loan guarantees now on track to go to 30 companies will help double renewable energy generation in Obama's first term.

The program that funded Solyndra is set to expire at the end of the month, and the White House is pushing to provide more green-energy loan guarantees through other initiatives and keep the U.S. competitive globally. The Chinese government, the Energy Department says, last year committed $30 billion to solar-panel manufacturers.

Almost immediately after the 2008 election, Obama advisors began debating how to create jobs while reducing the nation's reliance on fossil fuels. Some advisors pushed to expand a George W. Bush administration loan-guarantee initiative to help green-energy companies launch commercially. Others were philosophically opposed to providing help to individual companies and warned against betting taxpayer money on inherently risky ventures.

Nevertheless, the administration went forward with the loan guarantee program as part of the 2009 stimulus law. High-level disagreements on the program continued.

...



Link: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 8311.story

The Democratic Party has controlled both the State Assembly and the State Senate in California since 1996.


So the stimulus didn't work well in California...how about the United States as a whole? Obviously you can find exceptions, but look at the graph I've posted twice and tell me what, if not the stimulus, let to the dramatic change in the winter of 2009 rather than continued increases in job loss. Did the stimulus work according to the graph?

Any study also will fail to account for the thousands of jobs saved over the long run when stimulus money is pumped into any economy. Look at the graph and the larger picture I've been talking about. Got an opinion on the graph?
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Brackite still hasn't answered the question. What did the Republicans do during Obama that helped unemployment?

I wonder why California's unemployment rose when the Republicans were in control of Congress this whole time.

Brackite, you're hopping all over the place and contradicting yourself. You're not really dealing with any evidence presented that refutes your argument. All you are doing is playing musical chairs with the goal posts.
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Topping for Brackite.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Brace yourself, bcspace, for 4 more Obama years

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Topping for Brackite...

Economy added another 243,000 jobs and unemployment at 8.3%. What Republican policies lead to the dramatic turnaround?
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
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