The "Final Solution"?

[_MCB]

I think it depends on whether or not you are ALL OUT or ALL IN, if that makes sense.

It makes every bit of sense. But that only points to the role that LDS culture takes in breaking up families. We have at least two active members of this board whose current difficulties are illustrating that. And I think that this board's moderate attitude is because the more radical board contributes to the problem.

[_zeezrom]

I agree with Blixa, Zee. I think that if your family is ALL out, and you and your wife have made those decisions, and your children are, overall, happier without the Church, then stay out.

I think it depends on whether or not you are ALL OUT or ALL IN, if that makes sense.

my wife and I are not final on the decision anymore, Liz. That is the current predicament I find myself in. I have said too much. I don't think this is the right venue to be discussing this (publicly, without consent of my wife).

[_Blixa]

I agree with Blixa, Zee. I think that if your family is ALL out, and you and your wife have made those decisions, and your children are, overall, happier without the Church, then stay out.

I think it depends on whether or not you are ALL OUT or ALL IN, if that makes sense.

Dear Wife and I are not final on the decision anymore, Liz. That is the current predicament I find myself in. I have said too much. I don't think this is the right venue to be discussing this (publicly, without consent of Dear Wife).

Understood, zeez. And I don't expect my friends to have exactly the same life or needs as me. I'm just suggesting that if you make allowing your family the widest possible room to make their own choices a priority, that can guide your short term decisions. That could mean a lot of things, too, besides than leaving.

[_Buffalo]

I would submit that the good that the LDS church does would exist with our without the institution itself. Mormonism could disappear without a trace without any net loss of goodness in the world.

[_Blixa]

As for the "more good than harm" equation, eh, I think its kind of hard to put things in those terms.

I think the harm it does do is very problematic; meddling with politics that impact non-believers lives and creating a structure which makes honest dissent and disagreement pretty difficult for individual believers and their families is clearly not a good thing. And the authoritarian and quasi-fundamentalist nature of the current institutional structure belies the claim of encouraging the "further light and knowledge" that is a historical part of the doctrinal discourse. But I'm certainly well read and experienced enough to know that the bearers of these reactionary aspects of Mormonism, as found in a few posters here and on MDD, are hardly commensurable with "Mormonism" itself.

As usual, Blixa offers a reasonable contribution.

Granted, this is a board about Mormonism, but much of what you've described here can be applied to a lot of views - religious and non-religious alike. Is there anything distinctive about Mormonism that would invite its dismantling? (Of course, I think so, but for a reason you would not support).

Hoops, I don't think I would ever call for anything like "dismantling." I would love to see a lot of changes in the institution and maybe that is happening. After all, the Mormonism of today is a far cry from some of its earlier incarnations. How far it can change and still remain "Mormon," though is a bigger question.

[_Sethbag]

Hey Seth
I was just offering my "wow" on your "delight" should the 7 plus billion people on earth consider leaving their "fantasy" beliefs and adhering to beliefs that mirror yours.

Imagine the delight of over 7 billion Seth's walking among us? LOL!

Note I didn't say I wish people would believe like me. I said in concept I'd love for people to stop believing as fact things which are in fact fantasy. My own beliefs may well fall into that category too, and if so, I'd like to know about it. ;-)

Also, I don't include in that wish that all personal preferences, likes, dislikes, opinions, etc. mirror my own. I'm quite confident that 7 billion Sethbags walking the Earth would be a disaster - one Sethbag is probably already more than enough!

[_Jersey Girl]

Get rid of Mormonism. No more forums, no more discussions - just get rid if it, because it's useless to humanity. This is the message almost all of you convey here, that there's scarcely a single redeeming quality in "Joseph's baby". It should be wiped from the earth.

I don't think that Mormonism should be "wiped from the earth", that's pretty extreme. I do think that a prediction that I made years ago is taking place right under our noses, but I accept that I could be wrong.

Anyone here disagree that the world would be better off without this blight on religion and humanity?

I think that those who actually take that sort of hard line, take it with organized religion in general. You know, people starting wars over a fairy tale and that sort of thing. Extremists and such.

If you don't agree with that, you all coulda fooled me, and the amount of time you all spend here bashing Mormonism to kingdom come.

I don't bash Mormonism to kingdom come. Now yes, I bashed it several years ago, but I've learned and come to see the common ground that I share with LDS, so yeah, I don't bash Mormonism.

You got a lot of nerve posting here while I'm sitting in a blizzard and you're having summer, Ago.

:-P

[_Shulem]

I'm saying thousands of gay Utah Mormons have committed suicide due to the intense guilt heaped upon them by Mormonism. It happens everywhere in America as no one seems to treat gays very well, but Mormons are particularly good at making their most sensitive members feel worthless and wracked with guilt.

Maybe I'm wrong about the number - maybe it's only hundreds. I don't have any figures.

Well, please take some comfort in knowing that somehow by the good grace of my own damned wits I somehow survived it all and am alive today. The Mormon Church would have dug my grave just to preserve so-called virtue. But I awoke from the religious sleep that bound my soul and I shook of the chains that prevented my true sexual orientation from flowering into who I really am. I am alive!

I thank Myself! To hell with Boyd K. Packer. The worms will eat him soon enough.

Paul O

[_Shulem]

EDIT: you are missing your avatar, CK. I really miss the monkey with the graduation hat.

Fixed.

Holy Jesus, man lived before Adam! Joseph Fielding Smith must be rolling in his grave.

Paul O

[_RayAgostini]

Ray:

If Mormonism is so great, why aren't you one?

I've explained that a thousand times. Did I say Mormonism is "so great"? There's a difference to feeling that criticism is often over the top and even out of control (which in my view only makes sensible people reject all such criticism, Mormon and non-Mormon), and advocating Mormonism. If I thought it was "so great" I'd be posting on MD&D, not here, and yes, I'd be a member. Thousandth drum-roll: I'm a universalist. I feel the same way about hyper-criticism of Islam, and the scapegoating of Muslims as "terrorists", or any kind of unbalanced or "overboard" criticism.

Here on this board there's no middle ground. It doesn't take long for even moderates to get shouted down. I think why me does have a point about over-zealous Mormons becoming over-zealous ex-Mormons. The "black and white" thinking is what fuels this. A reading of any of Joseph Campbell's writings might assuage this?

The title of this thread is ridiculous. ...The ironic thing is Mormonism actually believes all other religions will be wiped off the face of the earth when Christ comes. So Mormonism actually has a final solution as part of their doctrine.

The ironic thing is that after criticising the thread title, you actually suggest that Mormons [have] "a final solution".

Did Ray's OP suggest that folks here wanted to wipe out members of the Mormon Church?

I didn't read it that way. He said wipe out Mormonism, the religion..not the people.

Someone with sense. The thread title was not meant to be taken literally. Maybe I'll change it to The "Final Solution".
Then there's the term "Nazi-Mormon", even used by Robert Kirby. Does anyone seriously believe that these Mormons are "Nazis" in the most literal sense?

I don't bash Mormonism to kingdom come. Now yes, I bashed it several years ago, but I've learned and come to see the common ground that I share with LDS, so yeah, I don't bash Mormonism.

I think we've traveled a similar path.

You got a lot of nerve posting here while I'm sitting in a blizzard and you're having summer, Ago.

:-P

I actually prefer winter, though we don't have blizzards and snow where I live, just floods and fire. This summer has been exceptionally cool, and I'm lapping it up.