The Church of Today and The Church of the Past

[_why me]

I think NOM's totally rock the house! As I stated recently, NOM's have made their evaluations, made their choices, and they DEAL with it.

'

NOMs have always existed in the LDS church. But there was never a box to put them in. They are certainly not new to the LDS church. From the first moment the church began NOMs came into existence with the first husband attending because of the wife.

However, all faiths have NOMs. We can call them NOCs: new order catholics. NOPs: New order penecostals etc. Nothing new here either.

However, with a church of NOMs, NOCs, NOPs etc, churches would fall.

[_why me]

I think that another thing that will happen, and is already starting to happen, is that the NOMs will be be the new TBMs. ;-)

What I mean by that is that, eventually, it will be the NOMs who are leading the Church in new ways.

Wishful thinking. The church would fall if so. The church claims to be led by god. Is god a NOM? I don't think so. The church can never be led by NOMs because most NOMs could not give the church the time it needs to function. The LDS church needs believers in the restoration and in the Book of Mormon. Not wishywashy people leading it in all directions.

[Guest]

Throwing the red flag. You are in complete ignorance of the following: 4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

What exactly is your point? Both Liz and harmony openly reject the above, do you? Are you part of the mamby-pamby pick and choose LDS type that just can't come to gripes with what they reject? The above stated Joseph Smith doctrine is quite clear... abide by the covenant or be damned. Please explain your argument, because you are being intellectually dishonest (in my opinion) in implying there are alternative ways to interpret the doctrine of Joseph Smith (a.k.a. LDS beliefs).

The covenant is celestial/temple marriage.

You are wrong. Just because Spencer Kimball attempted to mask the truth about polygamy, it doesn't change the doctrine of Joseph Smith. As the OP suggests, the LDS church has dramatically changed over time, so it's not surprising that you don't know the truth about its history. Let's look at some actual truth and see what Joseph Smith had to say about it...

http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm

Speaking to the Saints from the pulpit, the Prophet taught:

"Now, when a man in this Church says, `I don't want but one wife; I will live my religion with one,' he will perhaps be saved in the celestial kingdom, but when he gets there, he will not find himself in possession of any wife at all! He has had a talent that he has hid up. He will come forth and say, `Here is that which thou gavest me; I have not wasted it and here is the one talent,' and he will not enjoy it, but it will be taken from him and given to those who have improved the talent they received, and he will find himself without ANY wife, and he will remain single forever and ever." Read D&C 132:53-55 (Original Version).

And if you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and still require some clarity, let's see what Brigham Young had to say...
http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm

Brigham Young on the Fate of women rejecting plural marriage

"But if the woman is determined to not enter into plural marriage, that woman, when she comes forth, will have the privilege of living in single blessedness through all eternity. Now sisters, do not say, `I do not want a husband when I get up in the resurrection.' You do not know what you will want. If, in the resurrection, you really want to be single and alone and live forever and ever and be made servants, while others receive the higher order of intelligence, and are bringing worlds into existence, you can have the privilege. They who will be exalted cannot perform all the labor, they must have servants, and you can be servants to them." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 16, p.166)

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them."
- The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 11, p. 269, August 19, 1866.

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266).

The Book of Commandments later became the Doctrine and Covenants, but not before many things changed. The one thing we know to be true, is that the Book of Mormon and Book of Commandments were supposedly relayed to Joseph Smith through his seer stone.

http://mormonthink.com/d&c.htm

David Whitmer said:

[The] revelations … were printed in the Book of Commandments correctly… just exactly as they were arranged by Brother Joseph and the others. And when the Book of Commandments was printed, Joseph and the church received it as being printed correctly . . . When it became generally known that these important changes had been made in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, many of the brethren objected seriously to it, but they did not want to say much for the sake of peace, as it was Brother Joseph and the leaders who did it. The majority of the members – poor weak souls – thought that anything Brother Joseph would do must be all right; so in their blindness of heart, trusting in an arm of flesh, they looked over it and were led into error.
(David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, 1887, page 53, 56, 61)

The revelations in the Book of Commandments up to June, 1829, were given through the ‘stone,’ through which the Book of Mormon was translated
(David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, 1887, page 53)

Need some more clarity? The D&C is very specific on how a woman can be owned by a man, so he can't be an adulterer, but in the same condition she is guilty.

http://mormonthink.com/d&c.htm

The revelation on plural marriage in D&C 132, reveals special conditions placed on these marriages. God wanted Mormon men to marry virgins as multiple wives.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfill the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

Anybody married in the temple has entered into the covenant.

Once again, you're just parroting what you're told to believe. If you place faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, shouldn't you believe and follow him regarding things God himself commanded him to do? Note in the following the part about being damned...

http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm

Joseph commanded to practice polygamy by an angel.

"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction." - Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259

Sill confused Zelder? Care to acknowledge the above with how you interpret it... you know, your own thoughts instead of what you're supposed to believe?

[_Yoda]

Thews--

You and I disagree on the base doctrine of the LDS Church. To me, the core doctrine of the LDS Church is the same as many other Christian churches. That is:

1. Christ lived.
2. Christ died for our sins.
3. Christ was resurrected.
4. If we follow his commandments, we can return to him.


This is the core doctrine I believe in. It is a core doctrine of the LDS Church, as well as the doctrine of many other churches. If I choose to worship Christ, taking in this core doctrine while sitting in an LDS Church, or sitting in a Catholic Church, it does not matter.

[_why me]

Sill confused Zelder? Care to acknowledge the above with how you interpret it... you know, your own thoughts instead of what you're supposed to believe?

What do you want Zelder to say? Let me explain it to you: at that time it was a commandment. But does this mean that it will always be so? No. What needed it to be done needed to be done during that time in church history. Now we live in a different time and now other things need to be done and there are other commandments to follow.

Do you think that the early church at the times of james and peter is the same today? Do you remember the couple that were struck dead for cheating the early church out of their tithing? They failed the abrahamic test to give their possessions to the church and were punished accordingly.

[_why me]

This is the core doctrine I believe in. It is a core doctrine of the LDS Church, as well as the doctrine of many other churches. If I choose to worship Christ, taking in this core doctrine while sitting in an LDS Church, or sitting in a Catholic Church, it does not matter.

Maybe. But a good catholic would say that you may be going to hell for sitting in a Mormon church and for being a member of it. And many protestants would claim the same. Mormons are going to hell. However, I haven't heard Mormons claim the same for catholics or for protestants.

[_thews]

Thews--

You and I disagree on the base doctrine of the LDS Church. To me, the core doctrine of the LDS Church is the same as many other Christian churches. That is:

1. Christ lived.
2. Christ died for our sins.
3. Christ was resurrected.
4. If we follow his commandments, we can return to him.


This is the core doctrine I believe in. It is a core doctrine of the LDS Church, as well as the doctrine of many other churches. If I choose to worship Christ, taking in this core doctrine while sitting in an LDS Church, or sitting in a Catholic Church, it does not matter.

Liz, the "core doctrine" of Christianity is the Bible to include the New and Old Testament. The "core doctrine" of Mormonism is the JST version of the Bible and all the doctrine that came from Joseph Smith through his seer stone. Regarding what you believe about Jesus Christ, the LDS version of Jesus Christ as a separate personage and the whole Kolob nonsense and three levels of heaven are exclusive to Mormonism.

You continue to present the part of Mormonism you do believe in, but fail in your efforts to define Mormon doctrine as Christian, because it isn't Christian doctrine. Just as the New testament isn't part of the Jewish faith, all of Mormon doctrine including the revised JST Bible is not part of the Christian faith.

Your witness is defined by the church you align yourself with. It is your option to join a Christian church and present your witness to the truthfulness of its doctrine. It's also your choice to continue to align yourself as LDS/Mormon and present your witness to the truthfulness of the doctrine of Joseph Smith. If you wish to reject the doctrine of Joseph Smith as false, call yourself a NOM and continue to attend and align yourself as Mormon, that's your option, but it doesn't change the core doctrine of Christianity, which rejects Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God. If you believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, then by all means it makes sense for you to continue to attend a Mormon church and define your witness to the truthfulness of Joseph Smith's doctrine.

PS - If you want to play the KJV "official" card here regarding the Bible, it's an absolute cop-out, because if one believes in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, it would make sense to believe in his revised version of the Bible where he writes himself into it. In the end, not one single bit of "core doctrine" is shared between Mormonism and Christianity.

http://biblelight.net/false-prophets.htm

Many Prefer The False Prophet:

2 Tim 4:2 [NIV] Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

[_thews]

Sill confused Zelder? Care to acknowledge the above with how you interpret it... you know, your own thoughts instead of what you're supposed to believe?

What do you want Zelder to say? Let me explain it to you: at that time it was a commandment.

Did God appoint you as the spokesman for when a commandment has expired? Insn't the test of whether or not something is God's word depend on it being true, you know, forever?

http://biblelight.net/false-prophets.htm

Deu 13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
Deu 13:2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
Deu 13:3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

But does this mean that it will always be so? No. What needed it to be done needed to be done during that time in church history. Now we live in a different time and now other things need to be done and there are other commandments to follow.

Just because you have chosen to appease your cognitive dissonance with your spoon-fed BS logic, it has no basis other than your opinion. What part of the Bible has changed because the times changed?

Do you think that the early church at the times of james and peter is the same today? Do you remember the couple that were struck dead for cheating the early church out of their tithing? They failed the abrahamic test to give their possessions to the church and were punished accordingly.

Here we go round the circular reasoning logic in a failed attempt to nullify what doesn't make sense in Mormon doctrine. You can play the two wrongs card all day and throw the Bible under the bus if you choose, but polygamy is a commandment in Mormon doctrine and one is damned for rejecting it. That's what I'd like Zelder to acknowledge. Mormon women, who are lesser people in the Mormon faith when compared to men, will have to share their husbands in the Mormon version of heaven. Of course, if they choose not to they can be damned with the rest of us who rejected Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God.

[_why me]

Here we go round the circular reasoning logic in a failed attempt to nullify what doesn't make sense in Mormon doctrine. You can play the two wrongs card all day and throw the Bible under the bus if you choose, but polygamy is a commandment in Mormon doctrine and one is damned for rejecting it. That's what I'd like Zelder to acknowledge. Mormon women, who are lesser people in the Mormon faith when compared to men, will have to share their husbands in the Mormon version of heaven. Of course, if they choose not to they can be damned with the rest of us who rejected Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God.

This is not true not all since polygamy is not practiced anymore. Now of course, a man can remarry when the wife has died and be sealed to her too. But we have no idea what happens in the afterlife. The LDS church has prophets to lead the church. The needs of the LDS church change with time. It is not a static faith and a prophet now Trump's the past prophet.

[_why me]

Just because you have chosen to appease your cognitive dissonance with your spoon-fed BS logic, it has no basis other than your opinion. What part of the Bible has changed because the times changed?

The Bible does have eternal truths especially found in the ten commandments and in the sermon on the mount. But the early church at the times of peter is the early church and times have changed. For one thing it doesn't seem that people are killed for not paying an honest tithe. But times are different now in many areas. And because of this, we have new words of wisdom from current prophets. And new abrahamic tests.