The Church of Today and The Church of the Past

[_consiglieri]

The Church of Tomorrow will not resemble the Church of the Past, nor the Church of Today. Mormons will claim that's the purpose of ongoing revelation. Most thinking people will notice that Mormonism has just become Protestantism.

This is my point. We are approaching that now.

I agree with both points.

TBM's are steering the Church toward another vanilla flavor of Protestantism.

Isn't it a lovely irony that the NOM's are the ones working to retain in the LDS Church that which is uniquely Mormon?

Strange days.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

Or, at least NOMs like Consig! I would have given anything to be a fly on the wall during his Gospel Doctrine classes.

You are so sweet!

I have been playing around with the idea of producing a Gospel Doctrine podcast, uncorrelated and unexpurgated. Consiglieri style.

Do you think there would be much of a market?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Yoda]

Or, at least NOMs like Consig! I would have given anything to be a fly on the wall during his Gospel Doctrine classes.

You are so sweet!

I have been playing around with the idea of producing a Gospel Doctrine podcast, uncorrelated and unexpurgated. Consiglieri style.

Do you think there would be much of a market?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

OMG! I think it is an awesome idea!!! PM me. I have some thoughts..

[_harmony]

What exactly is your point? Both Liz and harmony openly reject the above, do you? Are you part of the mamby-pamby pick and choose LDS type that just can't come to gripes with what they reject? The above stated Joseph Smith doctrine is quite clear... abide by the covenant or be damned. Please explain your argument, because you are being intellectually dishonest (in my opinion) in implying there are alternative ways to interpret the doctrine of Joseph Smith (a.k.a. LDS beliefs).

The covenant is celestial/temple marriage. [/quote]

It's called "ongoing revelation", thews. Look it up some time.

And my personal inspiration for myself Trump's any prophet, ever. And that's just the way it is.

[_why me]

And my personal inspiration for myself Trump's any prophet, ever. And that's just the way it is.

Not exactly. But at the end of the day, who cares. But we both know that we can't have people going around trumping the prophet when it comes to revelation about the temple and about commandments, right? Or else all chaos would break loose in the church with each member doing her or his own thing.

[_why me]

TBM's are steering the Church toward another vanilla flavor of Protestantism.

Strange days.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I suppose that it is one of perception but I don't see this happening at all. Of course, NOMs want to see it happen and maybe they are having a wonderful fantasy about it. But...in reality, it is not happening. The church would need to discard the Book of Mormon and then maybe it would have a small chance to claim a protestant mantle. And then, it would need to abolish the concept of priesthood since in protestantism, priesthood does not exist. But...this seems unlikely too.

[_Zelder]

Sill confused Zelder? Care to acknowledge the above with how you interpret it... you know, your own thoughts instead of what you're supposed to believe?

In all of that you forgot to mention Jacob Chapter 2.

Frankly, plural marriage has over the past few years become one of the big mysteries for me in my personal belief system. I would love to know how it all works in heaven but there is not enough information. I've read D&C 132 several times and there is some weird stuff in there. I think it subtly leaves the door open to polyandry and polygyandry. It also claims there is be more revealed on the subject.

All of your arguments mean nothing to me. You don't know how it's going to work in heaven. The bigger picture of Mormonism tells me that if you are commaned to live plural marriage then it's a sin not to but if you are commaned not to do it then it's a sin to do it.

[_Brackite]

Sill confused Zelder? Care to acknowledge the above with how you interpret it... you know, your own thoughts instead of what you're supposed to believe?

In all of that you forgot to mention Jacob Chapter 2.

Frankly, plural marriage has over the past few years become one of the big mysteries for me in my personal belief system. I would love to know how it all works in heaven but there is not enough information. I've read D&C 132 several times and there is some weird stuff in there. I think it subtly leaves the door open to polyandry and polygyandry. It also claims there is be more revealed on the subject.

All of your arguments mean nothing to me. You don't know how it's going to work in heaven. The bigger picture of Mormonism tells me that if you are commaned to live plural marriage then it's a sin not to but if you are commaned not to do it then it's a sin to do it.

There will Not be any "Plural Marriages" in Heaven.

The Following is From about.com:

How many boys are born for every 100 girls?

There are 105 boy babies born for ever 100 girl babies worldwide but scientists haven't determined why this sex ratio is so.

Link: http://geography.about.com/library/faq/ ... eratio.htm




Here is Jacob Chapter Two, Verses 23 through 35:

Jacob 2:23-35:

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

[27] Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

[28] For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

[29] Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

The Phrase "saith the Lord" occurs nine times within Jacob Chapter Two, verses 23 through 33. The Prophet Jacob is mostly likely quoting the Revelation that his Father Prophet Lehi received while Prophet Lehi was still in the old World.
Here is First Nephi Chapter Seven, Verses one through three:

1 Nephi 7:1-3:

[1] And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.

[2] And it came to pass that the Lord commanded him that I, Nephi, and my brethren, should again return unto the land of Jerusalem, and bring down Ishmael and his family into the wilderness.

[3] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did again, with my brethren, go forth into the wilderness to go up to Jerusalem.

There is absolutely NO Evidence whatsoever, that the Phrase, 'raise up seed unto me', in Jacob Chapter Two verse 30, refers to that the Lord God will command His People to enter into the Practice of Polygamy. The Lord God intends to command His People to marry Monogamously, in order to be able to raise up a righteous seed unto Him. This is really meaning raising up righteous children, righteous sons and righteous daughters, unto the Lord God. It can and will be done through the Practice of Monogamy. The Lord God intends to raise up a righteous seed unto Him, through Monogamy, (NOT Polygamy), as can be clearly seen when correctly comparing Jacob 2:30 to 1 Nephi 7:1, and then correctly comparing 1 Nephi 7:1 to 1 Nephi 16:7-8.

Here is Jacob Chapter Two verse 30, Compared to 1 Nephi 7:1:

Jacob 2:30:

[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.


1 Nephi 7:1:

[1] And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.

Here is Now 1 Nephi 7:1, Compared to 1 Nephi 16:7-8:

1 Nephi 7:1:

[1] And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.


1 Nephi 16:7-8:

[7] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

[8] And thus my father had fulfilled all the commandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.

Nephi and his brethren took just one wife each, in order to be able to raise up seed unto the Lord God.
Nephi and his brethren did fulfill the Commandment of the Lord God, with them just taking one wife each, in order to be able to raise up righteous seed unto the Lord God.
A Righteous Man is able to raise up a righteous seed unto the Lord God, with having just one righteous wife.



Here is how Jacob Chapter Two Verse 30 is Correctly interpreted and read:

[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [To Marry Monogamously]; otherwise they shall [will] hearken unto these things [The Sins of Polygamy].

A lot of LDS Apologists have read the words, 'shall hearken' in Jacob 2:30 as imperative, and/or as a commandment, 'must hearken.' However, I have found three other places in the Book of Mormon were the words 'shall hearken' occur. These three places in the Book of Mormon where the words shall hearken occur at are in 1 Nephi 14:1, 2 Nephi 3:23, and 2 Nephi 28:31.

Here is 1 Nephi 14:1:

[1] And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks --

Here is 2 Nephi 2:23:

[23] Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book.

Here is now 2 Nephi 28:31:

[31] Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

(I Bolded the Phrase 'shall hearken' in all these three Scriptural Passages.)



In all those three other Passages in the Book of Mormon, the words 'shall hearken' is Not read as imperative, and/or as a commandment 'must hearken,' but the words 'shall hearken' in those three places in the Book of Mormon is correctly read as 'will hearken.' The same thing also goes for Jacob 2:30. The words 'shall hearken' in Jacob 2:30 is Not read as imperative, and/or as a commandment 'must hearken,' but the words 'shall hearken' in Jacob 2:30 is correctly read as descriptive, as 'will hearken.' A lot of the men of the People were willing to hearken unto the Sins of Polygamy. (Please See e.g. Jacob 1:15 & Jacob 2:34.).

Here is again how Jacob Chapter Two Verse 30 is correctly interpreted and read:

[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [To Marry Monogamously]; otherwise they shall [will] hearken unto these things [The Sins of Polygamy].

[_thews]

What exactly is your point? Both Liz and harmony openly reject the above, do you? Are you part of the mamby-pamby pick and choose LDS type that just can't come to gripes with what they reject? The above stated Joseph Smith doctrine is quite clear... abide by the covenant or be damned. Please explain your argument, because you are being intellectually dishonest (in my opinion) in implying there are alternative ways to interpret the doctrine of Joseph Smith (a.k.a. LDS beliefs).

It's called "ongoing revelation", thews. Look it up some time.

Let me get this straight... A Charlatan uses his magic rock to produce a book. Later, the charlatan enlists his friends to sign as witnesses, and in return they get multiple young wives appointed to them, but most are excommunicated. Then we have extra credit doctrine incorrectly translated from the pagan book of the dead. Add all this up with not one single shred of tangible evidence to back up one single truth claim, the abuse/degradation of women, racist doctrine, and now you're telling me to "look it up sometime" as if your point is so patently obvious I've missed something? Tell you what harmony, look up "cognitive dissonance" sometime for answers as to why you need to rationalize God's commandments changing.

And my personal inspiration for myself Trump's any prophet, ever. And that's just the way it is.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that you just don't have the guts to call BS and exit the Mormon church. As long as you stay a devout Mormon harmony, your witness to the truth claims of Joseph Smith is defined. Since you've failed to answer this question the many times I've asked it, are you damned for rejecting the doctrine of Joseph Smith's polygamy in heaven, or do you accept it?

“If ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned” ( v. 4 ).

“No one can reject this covenant and . . . enter into my glory” ( v. 4 ).

[_thews]

Sill confused Zelder? Care to acknowledge the above with how you interpret it... you know, your own thoughts instead of what you're supposed to believe?

In all of that you forgot to mention Jacob Chapter 2.

Frankly, plural marriage has over the past few years become one of the big mysteries for me in my personal belief system. I would love to know how it all works in heaven but there is not enough information. I've read D&C 132 several times and there is some weird stuff in there. I think it subtly leaves the door open to polyandry and polygyandry. It also claims there is be more revealed on the subject.

All of your arguments mean nothing to me. You don't know how it's going to work in heaven. The bigger picture of Mormonism tells me that if you are commaned to live plural marriage then it's a sin not to but if you are commaned not to do it then it's a sin to do it.

Thanks for the response Zelder. You're correct that I don't know how things will work in heaven. But, unlike you, I don't need to rationalize polygamy as practiced by Joseph Smith, and polyandry is so nonsensical it's probably why you believe there's a lack of information, when in actuality all the information is there, it's just not telling you what you want it to be. As far as Jacob chapter 2, try answering/digesting all the actual data I've posted thus far. If you can rationalize how Joseph Smith's take on polygamy/polyandry make sense, then move onto Brigham Young. If Brigham Young was a "prophet" per your beliefs, he makes things very clear regarding polygamy. Lastly, while I don't know how heaven will work, I do believe I know how it won't work. I don't fear being baptized a Mormon and later rejecting it (I was only 8 after all). I don't fear the supposed consequences of believing that Joseph Smith was a liar/charlatan and saying so. You see, the truth is all that matters to me, and the truth will dictate what I actually believe and will Trump anything I'm told by another human is a consequence for rejecting what they believe.