I'm Jewish AND Mormon!

[_beefcalf]

This, I understand, might require some form of evidence, to possible include paperwork from your rabbi, and possibly a... um... physical check, of sorts...

Thank goodness they are not that invasive during the Bishop's interview.

Hmmm.... well, whether a bishop's interview involves him inspecting your wiener or asking what you do with it, I think most of us would agree that both are too invasive...

[_MrStakhanovite]

You seriously did not see that I was using the 6 million figure to refer to the results of Hitler's attempt to exterminate European Jewry?

You missed the point, by including the demographics of other targets you gain a better context of what the purpose behind the extermination was.

The absurd consequence is that if you contend that atheist secular Jews not active in a 'Jewish community' are not really Jews, then a lot of people were killed by the Nazis under the following conditions:

1. The Nazis thought wrongly that they were really Jews.

But that is exactly what happened. After the ‘35 Nuremburg laws, they came up with a system of degrees for Jewish, Mischlinge, and Aryan. This system sent Lutheran Ministers who just happened to have Jewish grandparents to the gas chambers. It’s a sick irony, that so many Jews part of the German intelligentsia wanted to totally assimilate and become Germans, but couldn’t, because the Nuremberg laws forbade it.

So the Nazis targeted people who didn’t self identify as Jews, were not looked at as members by the Jewish communities, but were loaded into the cattle cars just the same.

I simply will not allow unscientific and racist ideology define what it is to be a Jewish.

[_beefcalf]

I simply will not allow unscientific and racist ideology define what it is to be a Jewish.

Likewise, I cannot stand idly by and allow the presence or absence of religious ideology to define what it is to be Jewish.

Face it Stak, even amongst the ~14 million Jews on this planet, the criteria for being 'Jewish' is somewhat difficult to define.

I know many Jews who believe in no god. I know many Jews who have no Semitic DNA. Many people walk different roads and still find themselves 'being Jewish'.

[_ludwigm]

This, I understand, might require some form of evidence, to possible include paperwork from your rabbi, and possibly a... um... physical check, of sorts...

A tourist in Israel is looking at the display window of a Circumcision Saloon, full with jewelry and other souvenirs.
He asks the owner:
- Do You think Your setout fit to Your profile?
The owner:
- What do You think, what should we put out?
(by the way apparently the owner is an echte Jewish. He answers with a question...)

[Guest]

I pointed out to Mr Stakhanovite that his 'Yom Kippur' rule for deciding who is a Jew excludes from Jewish identity a large number of people - secular people who thought they were Germans who just happened to be Jewish - who were killed by Hitler because he too thought they were Jewish. I'd like to pay those people the posthumous respect of allowing them to decide that they were Jewish. I'd like to pay the same respect to people living today, like my parents-in-law, who self-identify as Jewish although they are secular atheists.

Mr S. replies by dragging in the red herring that Hitler also killed some people as Jews who did not think they were Jewish (what proportion of the 6 million was that, I wonder?), and give us the ringing declaration:

I simply will not allow unscientific and racist ideology define what it is to be a Jewish.

Self-dramatize much? I can't help imagining the headline:

"Philosophy major saves countless thousands from Holocaust by principled stand ... Soon to be a major film: Stakhanovite's List."

Me, I'll stick with the basic rule that in a matter as complex as Jewish identity, it is more respectful of others to let them decide on what side of the line they stand. If Mr S. is prepared to go to Prague and start crossing names off this wall, I'd like to see what happens:



[Edited to fix typos]

[_ludwigm]

This is the interior of the main synagogue of H.

. Look at the flags on the wall...

...

[_MrStakhanovite]

I pointed out to Mr Stakhanovite that his 'Yom Kippur' rule

It wasn’t a rule, it was just an example of why being a Mormon is mutually exclusive from being Jewish:

Because being Mormon and being Jewish are mutually exclusive. Anyone identifying as a Mormon could not celebrate Yom Kippur in the way the Jewish community does, because the theology and religious ideas behind the day of atonement runs counter to Mormon beliefs.

Please respect the context and wording of my statements.

Mr S. replies by dragging in the red herring that Hitler also killed some people as Jews who did not think they were Jewish

Actually, it was you who introduced the notion that if Nazis would have killed someone for being Jewish, then they are Jewish:

By the way, I have close personal relationships with more than one Jew who would smile at the idea of observing Yom Kippur. Their forbears, who mostly thought the same way, were still Jewish enough for Hitler to want to kill them. So I don't think find your 'Yom Kippur' test attractive.

Notice how you couldn’t even characterize my comments about Yom Kippur correctly?

If Mr S. is prepared to go to Prague and start crossing names off this wall, I'd like to see what happens

Why would I start crossing names off the wall? There is nothing I’ve ever posted to indicate that I advocated such a wild idea.

Chap, why don’t you deal with what I’ve written?

[_Ceeboo]

Me thinks Stak and Chap have a serious crush on each other.


Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Chap]

Me thinks Stak and Chap have a serious crush on each other.


Peace,
Ceeboo

I am happy for people to judge my position in this thread by my posts, and I certainly am unexcited by the prospect of spending more time with Mr S. on this matter. I think I have made my position, and my view of his position, plain. He has also stated his views, no doubt to his own satisfaction.

And I shall continue to agree with my atheist, secular parents-in-law that they are Jewish, and that those of their forebears murdered by the Nazis who were also atheist and secular were also Jewish.

If Mr. S. has a problem with that - well then, he has a problem with it.

[_maklelan]

Because being Mormon and being Jewish are mutually exclusive. Anyone identifying as a Mormon could not celebrate Yom Kippur in the way the Jewish community does, because the theology and religious ideas behind the day of atonement runs counter to Mormon beliefs.

If you strip most if not all meaningful content behind what it means to be part of a religious community, you begin to make the labels of “Mormon” or “Jewish” so trivial that it can almost apply to anyone.

This is only true if we define both terms exclusively according to theological and soteriological propositions. Cultural and ethnic identification with these categories certainly allows for overlap, and both uses are certainly widespread. I know plenty of secular Jews who perform the various rituals for absolutely no other reason than that it's what their culture does. I think in light of that it's a bit myopic to insist that a Mormon cannot celebrate Yom Kippur "in the way the Jewish community does."