John 3:61

[_huckelberry]

But why should I be grateful to God for sacrificing his son to appease himself? Instead of sacrificing his son, why couldn't he sacrifice his own pride and just forgive us outright? The biblical model makes no sense, but it is what it is, and I don't see much room for metaphorizing. Even if we can make the blood and death metaphorical somehow, there's still all that sin and wrath and purity stuff to deal with.

Blood and death metaphorical???

That seems the most hopeless dead end. The blood and death are as literal as the day as long. Oh I see you notice there was much room for metaphorizing.

I suppose but why did Jesus and Paul spend so much time emphasizing our becoming a part of Jesus and him of us.?
I think the value of propitiation lies in our community.
You asked why did he not sacrifice his pride and forgive us outright? I thought that is exactly what he did.

[_Hoops]

Do you think Protestants are free from this? Think again. It is in Protestant circles I have heard before the awful things said which you opened this thread. They are wrong.

Yep, they certainly are. I've heard them to. Fortunately, we have an immovable standard by which to judge these things. And we are called to do exactly. Even from the very same pulpit that said the things to one to investigate. In case I might be accused of a one liner - I'm referring to the Bible. Anyone can say anything from the pulpit or anywhere else and if it does comport with our Biblical instruction then it can be discarded. Do we always do that? Nope. Do we often do that? Probably not. Do we do that often enough that we can maintain some consistent course? I think so, generally.

I believe with all my heart in the atonement. It is for rebirth and the connection between sinners leaving evil for a new community with God. It is not for some moloks vanity and empty purity..

Me to.

And I love this. Yep, you got it. It's about life. It's about participation. It's about engaging our fellow man, because Jesus engaged us in the most profound way.

Cue the sarcasm and disgusting foul comments. Or arrogance. Whichever is your brand of discourse.

[_RockSlider]

Jesus is just alright, he's my brother

[_zeezrom]

Is it arrogant to question whether Jesus engaged us in anything at all?

[_Hoops]

The fact that anyone here has a complaint about Ceeboo speaks volumes. I get it about me, but Ceeboo? Come on.

For DrW: This means that Ceeboo is the nicest, most generous and gracious person on this board. For one to complain about Ceeboo tells me that the complainer is a d*ckhead.

For Ceeboo: You're still a corrupt Catholic.

[_zeezrom]

Oh, and yes I agree Ceeboo is the cat's meow.

[_Hoops]

Is it arrogant to question whether Jesus engaged us in anything at all?

Goodness sakes, no!!! Please do question!!! all day long question. But question with a genuine desire to get an answer. And, no, I'm not talking about the Mormon answer. I mean talk to other people. Read what others have said about it. Read the Bible with an open mind and willing to let it speak to you. But if you like where you are, then that's not engagement, that's resignation - the opposite of faith.

Shoot, questioning is good and healthy. I fully believe that God knows this, and delights in it. That's participation!! He want your participation.

[_zeezrom]

Hoops,

We should get together. You know, hang around the water cooler together.

The problem comes down to gravity. I'm gravitating toward something I love. We'll see where it leads. Likely it won't lead to the spot you find yourself in.

[_Tarski]

If we go by what Lehi wrote in this particular sermon, it is the devil that seeks to enslave us,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NASl_Qy2sc

[_RockSlider]

Hey, hoops, do they ever do gospel rock at your church? Of course standard hymns have always moved me, but there is something about an electric guitar that moves my soul.

Being such the sheltered Mormon boy, it was not until I hit basic training, and got those Sunday options away from the barracks for an hour or two that I first came across a drum set and guitars in a chapel.

Mormon's frown on any percussion instruments (even acoustic guitars) in sacrament meeting … a shame really.
Of course much of American rock, and Country has roots in gospel.

Give me the beat boys, and free my soul!

here, this one is also likely a good basket ball player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0WRM2ShL-0