Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Droopy »


I guess you missed that part where I called for a poverty prebate. Either that or you don't know what it is. In either case, it would not be regressive at lower income levels. Add in the fact that many other kinds of taxes that would be ended that tend to disproportionately affect lower income brackets and the low end is likely to come out ahead. (Plus everyone having a sizable monthly check from the government will provide a weak safety net all by itself.) The tax becomes regressive when the the equation shifts away from the prebate/tax structure changes to the raw regressive nature of the tax. If you're not familiar with how the math shakes out, that is a surprisingly high income level where it starts to flip.


The Fair Tax is a con game. I'm not going to go into it now because I can't muster the interest at the moment, but its doubtful that the Fair Tax would ever really decrease overall tax rates at all, given its complex structure and the way it shifts much of the federal tax burden to the states, forcing the states to make up the difference.

The FairTax would eliminate individual tax returns, but turn each business in the nation into an individual tax collector. Every business, traditional and Internet, will become a tax collector for the federal government. This creates huge paperwork and administrative burdens of small business and entrepreneurs that it is hard to see decrease the general invasiveness and compliance costs of dealing with the present code.

The rate is 23% percent - a huge tax increase on the working poor, and this must be added to already existing state sales taxes and state income taxes (as well as other special forms of taxation, such as for hotel rooms and gas tax (54% of every gallon of gas at the pump is tax, not the market price). Will gas be included (an extra 23% sales tax on a gallon of gas)?

Keep in mind that even if it is true that a worker would now get to take home his entire gross pay, everything he buys would suddenly experience a massive jump in cost of 23%. Is the worker better off? Depends on his effective tax rate. If he pays 23% of his pay in taxes, and everything increases in price by23%, its a wash. If less, then a clear regressivity sets in, which is then handled by a complex "prebate" system which is nothing but a welfare check.

The real tax rate, for most American's, will not be 23% either, but more in the area of 39% or so after the average state tax rate is taken into consideration (unless the federal government forces the states to elimination its state sales taxes, which will simply shift those taxes into other forms).

The FairTax will also make it easier, not more difficult, for Congress to raise taxes. Congress can easily come back each year and adjust the combined Federal tax rate percentage upwards, year by year, over time.
Little will change here.

The FairTax doesn't really even eliminate the IRS, a key statutory provision of the Flat Tax. As the Fair Tax Act of 2005 says:

There shall be in the Department of the Treasury a Sales Tax Bureau to administer the national sales tax in those States where it is required pursuant to section 404, and to discharge other Federal duties and powers relating to the national sales tax (including those required by sections 402, 403, and 405). The Office of Revenue Allocation shall be within the Sales Tax Bureau.


Not the least of the problems is that the FairTax is, far from being regressive, actually progressive in nature. How you ask? Isn't it a flat 23% on all new goods and services? Well, yes and no, it appears. Why? Because of the "rebate" equal to "the FairTax paid on essential goods and services" given out each month. However, as most of the poor will actually pay less than zero% in retail sales tax on their overall spending, the rebate will, in actuality, be engaged in the redistribution of wealth from some sectors of the economy to others, just as in the present progressive system.

The FairTax movement itself is proud of this state of affairs:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer? ... answers#49

The prebate seems also to be a very, very bad idea, from both a philosophical and moral standpoint, encompassing some of the worst elements of the mentality of a "guaranteed annual income" of the political Left. Instead of giving each and every citizen a government check each month (and the psychological effects of this are already well understood through out long experience with our own welfare state), why not just lower the rates to the extent that no rebate is necessary at all and no specific desire for one arises in the general population (the rebate would go to everyone, from people who buy very little to Donald Trump, and would simply be, effectivly, a national welfare program less means testing).

One major idea behind the flat tax movement is to subvert the ability of the federal government to spend money and invade ever more aspects of our lives. I do not see the FairTax accomplishing most of those goals, and indeed, substantial bureaucracy would be required to administer the plan, at both the federal and state level and new overhead costs would be created for countless individual entrepreneurs.

Tax cuts, over time, stimulate economic activity and increase government revenues. This is an unwanted side effect of cutting taxes in the proper way, which is why the flat tax itself is not adequate, but must be coupled with Congressional action that decreases the size and scope of government in an absolute sense.





http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

Far more complicated, indeed, than the flat tax. It would also likely simply be a new federal tax that would be compound with ever higher state taxes. The actual tax burden may, in the end, be little changed.

It would be revenue neutral. Adjusting the rate would determine if the burden is the same or changed. It would simplify the tax code way beyond its current state and would be more simple than what you advocate simply because it would eliminate a variety of other forms of tax (capital gains, corporate, FICA, etc.) The law would have to be structured in such a way that not adding in selective breaks is a sacrosanct rule, otherwise the same screwup of the tax code is inevitable. But that's an issue with any tax plan.

Because everyone doesn't make the same dollar amount.


Well, that made no sense. I guess you couldn't google free republic for that answer.

The flat tax is only regressive, to a degree that it is relevant...

The effective tax rate would decrease as wealth increases if you changed the current income tax to a flat tax. In order to avoid that, you'd have to revamp the entire tax system (just like I propose). Further, the less able you are to afford, the more burdened you'd be by the change which is where the "fairness" intuition goes all awry.[/quote]
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Droopy »

The effective tax rate would decrease as wealth increases if you changed the current income tax to a flat tax.


Just as with the FairTax. No difference here. A multimillionaire taking home his entire salary, paying 23% more of all goods and services, and then receiving his prebate for essential necessities, would come out with a tiny overall tax burden as a percentage of income.

In order to avoid that, you'd have to revamp the entire tax system (just like I propose).


The flat tax is far simpler, less intrusive and invasive, and actually decreases the administrative overhead of compliance with the tax code that the FairTax is not going to achieve.

Secondly, we really do need to quite worrying and wringing our hands that a millionaire somewhere isn't paying as much of his income in taxes as certain lofty moral nannies in academia, the mainstream media, and government think they should, and start worrying about the proper level and form of taxation relative to the strength and viability of the economy as a whole.

We need to start being very, very concerned about individual economic liberty and the creation of real wealth by productive individuals and the best means to encourage and incentivize work, savings, risk, and investment. I don't need to be concerned that my rich neighbor down the street is paying a 17% flat tax and not 40% - 50% of his income in progressive taxes, and that I'm paying the same rate but at a much smaller total personal income. That's none of my business. What is important is that he and I are prospering and are free to do so at a substantially decreased level of disincentive and economic restriction such as is imposed by the present tax system.

I'm not concerned with what my neighbor makes. I'm not concerned that he makes more than I do. I'm not concerned with the fact that he drives a nicer car or has a bigger, nicer pool, and a larger size TV. I'm not concerned with his tax rates as a matter of comparison with mine as to who is paying a "fair" share in taxes. I am concerned with the restrictions of individual economic freedom imposed on both me and my neighbors, both rich and poor, but a gluttonous, intrusive, rapacious federal government that destroys and wastes most of the tax money it takes in.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:The Fair Tax is a con game. I'm not going to go into it now because I can't muster the interest at the moment, but its doubtful that the Fair Tax would ever really decrease overall tax rates at all, given its complex structure and the way it shifts much of the federal tax burden to the states, forcing the states to make up the difference.


You can easily make consumption tax revenue neutral. You just have to pick a revenue neutral rate. If you want lower revenues/less taxes, you go below the neutral point, if you want more above. What's complicated about this? If 23% is too low, which is the germ of your criticism here, that is solved by raising the level.
The FairTax would eliminate individual tax returns, but turn each business in the nation into an individual tax collector. Every business, traditional and Internet, will become a tax collector for the federal government. This creates huge paperwork and administrative burdens of small business and entrepreneurs that it is hard to see decrease the general invasiveness and compliance costs of dealing with the present code.


It's like you're unaware that various forms of consumption taxes are practiced throughout the world and by most US states. I'm not married to the FairTax proposal specifically. I prefer a value added system. So you shouldn't have taken my link as an endorsement of a very specific bill.
The rate is 23% percent - a huge tax increase on the working poor


The poverty-line prebate is like your 13th floor.
which is then handled by a complex "prebate" system which is nothing but a welfare check.


Hey, you found the 13th floor. On the one hand, you say it's hugely regressive on the poor. When it is pointed out that the actual policy proposals take out poverty level (and beyond) regressivity, you point out that's a welfare check. Later you complain that it's progressive. You can't have it both ways.

The FairTax will also make it easier, not more difficult, for Congress to raise taxes. Congress can easily come back each year and adjust the combined Federal tax rate percentage upwards, year by year, over time.


When tax is simplified into one rate, it will be easy to move the bar one way or another, yes. Given that the US has one of its lowest effective tax rates of the modern era right now, the suggestion that pro-tax forces will inevitably win strikes me as misguided. It's not like state sale's taxes climb up until they consume all wealth. A political balance is, eventually, found. If you're suggesting that balance will be higher, that is not at all self-evident. At least this kind of tax is simple enough that people can understand how rates will affect them and others. The modern tax code is so complicated and filled with exceptions, subsidies, and loopholes that the policy is incredibly opaque to make judgments on.

The FairTax doesn't really even eliminate the IRS


So? The expense of enforcing this tax code would not at all be significant when contrasted against the overall budget or revenue the system brings in. The flat tax would be cheaper if not for all the other taxes it leaves intact. This is a point in its favor, but sometimes more expensive programs are favorable because they bring better results.

Not the least of the problems is that the FairTax is, far from being regressive, actually progressive in nature. How you ask? Isn't it a flat 23% on all new goods and services? Well, yes and no, it appears. Why? Because of the "rebate" equal to "the FairTax paid on essential goods and services" given out each month. However, as most of the poor will actually pay less than zero% in retail sales tax on their overall spending, the rebate will, in actuality, be engaged in the redistribution of wealth from some sectors of the economy to others, just as in the present progressive system.

I don't view this as a problem and pointed it out in my previous post. I know there is no room for a social safety net in your behemoth military power / enforcer of religious morality government, but you're speaking with the wrong person if you expect that to be a shared assumption. The prebate is in a sweet spot where it shouldn't impact productivity significantly while allowing people to minimally subsist. I view this as a good thing; you do not. Such is life.
_Brackite
_Emeritus
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Brackite »

No there were 57 Democrats + 2 Ind. (Bernie Sanders and Joe Lieberman) = 59 votes in the Democratic caucus.



Yes, You are technically correct. Senator Joe Lieberman is technically an Independent, though in reality hi is a Democrat.
The Following is from Wikipedia:

Joseph Isadore "Joe" Lieberman (born February 24, 1942) is the senior United States Senator from Connecticut. A former member of the Democratic Party, he was the party's nominee for Vice President in the 2000 election. Currently an independent, he remains closely affiliated with the party.


Born in Stamford, Connecticut, Lieberman is a graduate of Yale University and Yale Law School. He was elected as a "reform Democrat" in 1970 to the Connecticut Senate, where he served three terms as Majority Leader. After an unsuccessful bid for the U.S. House of Representatives in 1980, he served as state Attorney General from 1983 to 1989. Lieberman defeated moderate Republican Lowell Weicker in 1988 to win election to the United States Senate and was re-elected in 1994 and 2000. In the 2000 United States presidential election, Lieberman was the Democratic nominee for Vice President, running with presidential nominee Al Gore, becoming the first Jewish candidate on a major American political party presidential ticket.[2] He was an unsuccessful candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination in the 2004 presidential election.


During his re-election bid in 2006, he lost the Democratic Party primary election but won re-election in the general election as a third party candidate under the party label "Connecticut for Lieberman". Lieberman himself is not a member of the Connecticut for Lieberman party; he is a registered Democrat.[3]


Lieberman was officially listed in Senate records for the 110th and 111th Congresses as an "Independent Democrat"[4] and sits as part of the Senate Democratic Caucus. But since his speech at the 2008 Republican National Convention in which he endorsed John McCain for president, Lieberman no longer attends Democratic Caucus leadership strategy meetings or policy lunches.[5] On November 5, 2008, Lieberman met with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to discuss his future role with the Democratic Party. Ultimately, the Senate Democratic Caucus voted to allow Lieberman to keep chairmanship of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. Subsequently, Lieberman announced that he will continue to caucus with the Democrats.[6] Lieberman announced in January 2011 that he will not seek re-election in 2012.[7]



Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Lieberman




I will give that the Democrats had 60 vote majorities briefly from July 9 2009-August 25 2009 and again from Sept 25 2009-Feb 4 2010 during which time nothing major happened legislatively so the super majority meant nothing. (see 3rd link for timeline)



It was during this time frame that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as 'ObamaCare' ended up Passing in the Democratic controlled filibuster-free Senate.
The Following is from Wikipedia:

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) [1][2] is a United States federal statute signed into law by President Barack Obama on March 23, 2010. The law (along with the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010) is the principal health care reform legislation of the 111th United States Congress. PPACA reforms certain aspects of the private health insurance industry and public health insurance programs, increases insurance coverage of pre-existing conditions, expands access to insurance to over 30 million Americans,[3][4] and increases projected national medical spending[5][6] while lowering projected Medicare spending.[7]

PPACA passed the Senate on December 24, 2009, by a vote of 60–39 with all Democrats and two Independents voting for, and all Republicans voting against.[8] It passed the House of Representatives on March 21, 2010, by a vote of 219–212, with 34 Democrats and all 178 Republicans voting against the bill.[9]



Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPACA




The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) got Passed in the Senate on December 24, 2009, by a vote of 60–39 with all Democrats and two Independents voting for, and all Republicans voting against. This of course was between the time from Sept. 25, 2009 till Feb 3, 2010.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Smokin' Joe Lieberman is an evil conservative Democrat in Independent-Democrat clothing. I'm glad he's leaving the Senate.

I'll give you the ACA. I was wrong on that one. Too bad they didn't pass taxes on the rich.

(Does anyone think that a filibuster should be allowed? I hate that you can't get legislation passed without a simple majority.)
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _moksha »

Brackite wrote:

It was during this time frame that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as 'ObamaCare' ended up Passing in the Democratic controlled filibuster-free Senate.


Brackite, for what it is worth one of our Senators from Utah, Orin Hatch, is using millons of his Super-PAC dollars running TV ads telling us that he is against ObamaCare. This of course is a winning combo in pitting the brave but elderly Senator against hatred for both Obama and health care.

Run both Senator Hatch and individually bartered for homeopathy up a flag pole and we will salute both!
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Post Reply