G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexual Allegations

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_why me
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _why me »

Miss Taken wrote:Also here

http://www.mrm.org/law-interview

Also interesting... I don't get the impression that William Law is/was a 'bad' man...


I think that william may have been a good man but he still had it out for Joseph. And this vendetta colored his outlook. He was human but showed no understanding for polygamy and made his accusations. Also, there was no way that the practice could have been made public without an adverse reaction from the mobs. It would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. What is unfortunate when one looks at the papers at that time is the rabid antimormonism that they contained. It clouded many people's minds.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
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We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _why me »

SteelHead wrote:How many investigators do you think would be baptized each year if the church taught the true history of the 1st vision, the translation process, Kirtland, Nauvoo, polygamy/polyandry, and the priesthood ban? I would think very few, but perhaps they should become required material for baptism.


Actually, I think quite many. The church is not about history but about the holy ghost testifying as to its truth. And that would happen regardless. However, since critic history of the LDS church is written to cast doubt, some may not survive the interpretation. Most people do not have critical thinking skills to question and research their way through the maze.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _SteelHead »

I am glad it works for you why me, but it is a broken epistemology.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _DarkHelmet »

why me wrote:The church is not about history but about the holy ghost testifying as to its truth. And that would happen regardless. However, since critic history of the LDS church is written to cast doubt, some may not survive the interpretation. Most people do not have critical thinking skills to question and research their way through the maze.


you start by saying the Holy Ghost testifies, and then you say a person needs critical thinking skills to research their way through the maze. So which is it, the Holy Ghost or critical thinking? If someone used their critical thinking skills to decide Joseph Smith was a fraud based on all the evidence, yet they also received what they thought was a burning in the bosom that the Book of Mormon was true, would you suggest they use their critical thinking skills, or just set all that aside and rely on the Holy Ghost?
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Mormon history is only important if it happened between 2200 BC through 400 AD. While it is important to believe the Jaradite barges were real and plausible, 'obscure' eye witness testimony of Joseph Smith's behavior can readily be dismissed as unimportant and labeled "not getting what the restored gospel is about".
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Joe Geisner »

why me wrote:I think that you should read Don Bradley's account of the alger episode. I think that he covers it quite well. He also returned to the LDS church after doing some in-depth research about some of the more controversial aspects of church history. I think that you may find his writings about Alger and Joseph interesting.


I don't get why someone who has left Mormonism and then returns somehow has more weight in their historical writings than other historians. This logic would mean that Mike Quinn should be the darling of all apologists since Mike still believes the Church and Joseph Smith are God's true Church and his prophet, even after he was ex'ed. History is based on evidence, not on peoples lifestyle.

I was on a panel with Newell Bringhurst about the book Don's chapter appears in (Newell is a great historian by the way). Here is what I wrote: (I am transferring this from Word and I know it will format funny, sorry.)

The first chapter is by Joseph Smith Papers Project employee, Don Bradley, who writes about Joseph Smith’s relationship with Fanny Alger, his 18year old house-keeper/guest in Kirtland, Ohio, during the spring of 1836. Bradley assembles evidence, some of it new, to argue that their relationship was a plural marriage or sealing, not an adulterous affair on Smith’s part. Bradley introduces new evidence with the recently released Andrew Jenson file in the CHL. This record is quite late recollections and has to be considered in that light.

But I would like to look at the closest evidence to the time of the affair. Smith and Rigdon had been in Far West in November 1837 and met with the leaders there. Smith and Cowdery met and discussed what had happened between Smith and Alger. Just before Smith left, the two had decided they would no longer talk publically about the incident, but keep it private. When Smith went back to Kirtland, he decided this was not enough, and started claiming that Cowdery admitted he had lied about Smith and Alger. Cowdery’s brothers, Warren and Lyman were in Kirtland and heard Smith say this, so they wrote a letter to Oliver telling him what was happening. Oliver Cowdery then wrote to his brother Warren Cowdery on January 21, 1838 telling him what had transpired in Far West : "You will see from the other page that your own Brother Lyman’s requests concerning the Stated confession made to Mr. Smith, is, if I am to be credited, not so. For what he pretended to have made it, is to me unaccountable. I can assure you and bro. Lyman, that as God is to judge my soul in the world to come, I never confessed, intimated <or admitted> that I ever willfully lied about him. When he was there we had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair (scrape) of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deviated from the truth on the matters, and as I supposed was admitted by himself."

“At any rate, just before leaving, he wanted to drop every past thing in which had been a difficulty or difference---he called witnesses to the fact, gave me his hand in their presence, and I might have supposed of an honest man, calculated to say nothing of the former matters.”

On the same day, Cowdery wrote to Joseph Smith:
Sir - I learn from Kirtland, by the last letters, that you have publickly said, that when you were here I confessed to you that I had willfully lied about you – this compels me to ask you to correct that statement, and give me an explanation – until which you and myself are two.”

In the Far West Record April 12, 1838, 167: “David W. Patten testifies, that he went to Oliver Cowdery to enquire of him if a certain story was true respecting J. Smith's committing adultery with a certain girl,18 when he turned on his heel and insinuated as though he was guilty; he then went on and gave a history of some circumstances respecting the adultery scrape stating that no doubt it was true. Also said that Joseph told him, he had confessed to Emma”

If we stop here, not allowing Nauvoo theology in and memory to cloud the past events, it seems both Cowdery and Smith considered this nothing more than an affair. If this affair was on the up and up (a marriage), why did Smith not tell Emma and Cowdery that this was a religious ordinance or there was a revelation? Why did others not come out and say that this was a sealing or marriage when the affair was made public, but instead Smith’s followers accused Cowdery of making it all up?
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Mary »

Hi Why me. I'm not worried about posting on the Mormon Dialogue website, just seeing what the apologists have to say. It's not too much of a big deal. I'm a bit bemused by it.

Just out of interest, William Law speaks of paying off the bond for the Lawrence girls. He states Emma was not of a mind to pay for Joseph's debts. Is there evidence anywhere that he did indeed pay off the bond. If he did, it would indicate that he put integrity over money. He also states that it was his understanding that much of the wealth Joseph accumulated went into Emma's name. Is there evidence for this?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _why me »

SteelHead wrote:I am glad it works for you why me, but it is a broken epistemology.


History is history. I don't put much into it when it comes to the church since most have a bias to it. But here is what I know. No women claimed that Joseph Smith was a lustful guy out for a quickie. And he certainly was married to many women who could have blown the whistle especially after he was murdered. Women know when a guy just wants sex. They are not stupid.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _why me »

Joe Geisner wrote:
If this affair was on the up and up (a marriage), why did Smith not tell Emma and Cowdery that this was a religious ordinance or there was a revelation? Why did others not come out and say that this was a sealing or marriage when the affair was made public, but instead Smith’s followers accused Cowdery of making it all up?


Alger's parents were good members of the church as were her brother. No one saw anything improper in the relationship and in fact, fanny's mom was rather happy to have fanny sealed to the prophet. I think that this says much for the relationship. Oliver had a problem with Joseph Smith. But he came back to the fold after Joseph Smith was murdered. All was forgiven and Oliver bore his testimony on his deathbed in front of wife and child. What more can be said?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Drifting »

why me wrote:
SteelHead wrote:I am glad it works for you why me, but it is a broken epistemology.


History is history. I don't put much into it when it comes to the church since most have a bias to it. But here is what I know. No women claimed that Joseph Smith was a lustful guy out for a quickie. And he certainly was married to many women who could have blown the whistle especially after he was murdered. Women know when a guy just wants sex. They are not stupid.


33 wives at least.
11 were married with living husbands.
Double figures of them were teenagers when the 30+ year old Joseph married them.
Fanny Alger was before the sealing keys had been restored and so cannot be anything other than an example of lustful Joseph out for a quickie.

The reason polygamy was required was to produce seed - it was commanded for Joseph to have sex with them; did he disobey God?
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