G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexual Allegations

[_Buffalo]

Chap, I don't think that I can say that the introduction of polygamy in the LDS church in the 19th Century was a mistake.

Here is my reasoning.. Would the church have established itself so quickly without it? In terms of intricate and close-knit family ties, in terms of numbers? I'm not sure it would have.

So if we are talking about the survival of the church up till today, then I think polygamy may have been an integral part of that. What think you?

I think polygamy drove away all the people of character and backbone, and made the church very strange and insular for a long time.

[_Chap]

Chap, I don't think that I can say that the introduction of polygamy in the LDS church in the 19th Century was a mistake.

Here is my reasoning.. Would the church have established itself so quickly without it? In terms of intricate and close-knit family ties, in terms of numbers? I'm not sure it would have.

So if we are talking about the survival of the church up till today, then I think polygamy may have been an integral part of that. What think you?

As far as I recall, there was no great disparity of numbers of men and women in early Mormon populations. And also, so far as I recall, there is no evidence that 6 women married to one man have more children than if they were married to six different men. Indeed, given the limited sexual capacity of the male gender, one might expect the advantage to be the other way, assuming that living conditions and health status are equivalent.

In any case only a minority of early Mormons practised polygamy If I recall correctly.

[Schreech]

Why me, I don't get it. Why are you getting so 'het' up about Oliver Huntington's Diary entries. So Joseph thinks that the conditions he is working in is going to cause his death... He tells him to get out and get drunk. Probably thinks he's working too hard.

The problem I have is with William Clayton's diary, where Joseph is basically saying that Robert Thompson had to die because he had fallen in some way..

Code: Select all

June 23,1843
"This A.M. Prest J[oseph] took me and conversed considerable concerning some delicate matters. said E[mma] wanted to lay a snare for me. He told me last night of this and said he had felt troubled. He said E[mma] had treated him coldly & badly since I came and he knew she was disposed to be revenged on him for some things she thought that if he would indulge himself she would too. He cautioned me very kindly for which I felt thankful. [b]He said [Robert] Thompson professed great friendship for him but he gave way to temptation & he had to die.[/b] Also bro [Vinson]Knight he gave him one but he went to loose conduct and he could not save him. Also B[righam] Y[oung] had transgressed his covenant & he pled with the Lord to spare him this end & he did so, other wise he would have died. B[righam] denied having transgressed. He said if I would do right by him & abide his council he would save my life while he lived. I feel desirous to do right & would rather die than loose my interest in the celestial kingdom."

My bold.

This is the quote that makes Thompson's death look suspicious. Oliver B Huntington's entry indicates that Joseph was 'concerned' for Thompson's health, but it does differ in portraying Thompson as a man not 'inclined' to go out and get drunk!

[_just me]

Chap, I don't think that I can say that the introduction of polygamy in the LDS church in the 19th Century was a mistake.

Here is my reasoning.. Would the church have established itself so quickly without it? In terms of intricate and close-knit family ties, in terms of numbers? I'm not sure it would have.

So if we are talking about the survival of the church up till today, then I think polygamy may have been an integral part of that. What think you?

As far as I recall, there was no great disparity of numbers of men and women in early Mormon populations. And also, so far as I recall, there is no evidence that 6 women married to one man have more children than if they were married to six different men. Indeed, given the limited sexual capacity of the male gender, one might expect the advantage to be the other way, assuming that living conditions and health status are equivalent.

In any case only a minority of early Mormons practised polygamy If I recall correctly.

Birthrate is an interesting topic. Women who share one man have fewer children (statistically) than women who have their own stud. Just look at BY wives for a prime example.

[_Mary]

As far as I recall, there was no great disparity of numbers of men and women in early Mormon populations. And also, so far as I recall, there is no evidence that 6 women married to one man have more children than if they were married to six different men. Indeed, given the limited sexual capacity of the male gender, one might expect the advantage to be the other way, assuming that living conditions and health status are equivalent.

In any case only a minority of early Mormons practised polygamy If I recall correctly.

Altman and Ginat (1996) suggest that the likely number of polygamous families was between 15 and 25%. Not that small.

Mealey (1985) found that church status was closely linked to the taking of additional wives.

Faux and Miller (1984) suggest that familial relationships may have contributed to the solidarity of the hierarchy.



See the article 'Mormon Polygamy in the 19th Century'

William Volf

Just me, do you have any information on birth rate?

[_just me]

Just me, do you have any information on birth rate?

It's been a while since I ran across that information. I can't even remember if it was LDS related or just general. I'll see if I can dig up where I found that.

I will say that my genealogy research supports this idea.

*I am having a hard time finding what I read previously...

[_RayAgostini]

Listening to part 2 of the interview this morning, Palmer answered a question nagging at me since a couple of years back when I read D&C 132 and wondered what the heck verse 51 was talking about:

Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

It was clear to me when reading this verse that it was phrased in such a way as to speak of something offered to Emma without being specific enough for anybody else to know what it was just by reading it. I wrote in the margin of my scriptures, "What was offered to Emma???"

According to Grant Palmer (citing William Law), the unstated object of the revelation was William Law himself!

I failed to pick up on the clue in verse 54:

And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant, Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

While recognizing we have only William Law's version (to my knowledge) that this is what happened, what am I to make of the fact that his version fits so well the revelation published by the Church in the current Book of Doctrine and Covenants?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

These "connections" became obvious to me back in the '80s, after reading Mormon Enigma. I assumed you'd read it? If not, the relevant chapters are 10 & 11, "More Wives and a Revelation", and "The Poisoning".

[_Joe Geisner]

Joe, I just checked this website

http://saintswithouthalos.com/b/thompson_r.phtml

Which suggests that Robert died of the unhealthy conditions working on the Times and Seasons.

And that Joseph told him to take a holiday and get drunk, otherwise he would die.

Grief, early LDS history is such a minefield...

Very good find Miss Taken. Oliver Huntington was Zina and Precinda Lathrop Huntington's brother, Zina was Joseph's polyandrous wife and then Brigham Young's polyandrous wife. Precinda was one of Smith's wive as well. Oliver was an insider, as was most of his family. Their brother Dimick was a constable in Nauvoo and a central character in the Mountain Meadows story.

The intertwining of these families is central in understanding early Mormon history.

So yes, Oliver Huntington is as reliable source as far as these kinds of reminiscences go. Historians have long used his accounts for the events in Nauvoo, Winter Quarters, and Utah.

[_why me]

This is the quote that makes Thompson's death look suspicious. Oliver B Huntington's entry indicates that Joseph was 'concerned' for Thompson's health, but it does differ in portraying Thompson as a man not 'inclined' to go out and get drunk!

The point that I was trying to make is that a journal entry is just that, a journal entry. I don't put much into it. Clayton was writing about something that happened two years previously. And I am sure that Joseph said more than what was recorded by clayton. Also, who is to say that all was right in the entry. And why did clayton remain a faithful member of the church with all this going on? Something is not right in the entry.

If I am not mistaken, Huntington also was a faithful member of the church. How to explain it if one goes by the journal entries?

[_Drifting]

This is the quote that makes Thompson's death look suspicious. Oliver B Huntington's entry indicates that Joseph was 'concerned' for Thompson's health, but it does differ in portraying Thompson as a man not 'inclined' to go out and get drunk!

The point that I was trying to make is that a journal entry is just that, a journal entry. I don't put much into it. Clayton was writing about something that happened two years previously.

But you believe Mormon's journal, right?