What is God telling the prophets?

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_maklelan
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _maklelan »

Morley wrote:Neither did the 1890 Manifesto to end polygamy. Do you discount it as well?


Actually Woodruff has published his own account of the revelations that catalyzed the 1890 manifesto:

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. …

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for … any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

… I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. …

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)


Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. … All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
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_Morley
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _Morley »

maklelan wrote:
Morley wrote:Neither did the 1890 Manifesto to end polygamy. Do you discount it as well?


Actually Woodruff has published his own account of the revelations that catalyzed the 1890 manifesto: ....


Those explanations have not been canonized.
_Quasimodo
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _Quasimodo »

maklelan wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:I understand that it is your opinion, but it doesn't really refute the First Presidency statement. It's just your own personal feelings about it. Who is to be believed? The First Presidency or you?


That's up to you, but the fact remains that the First Presidency did not indicate any specific revelation, and I am aware of none.


The First Presidency includes the Prophet, does it not? That statement is pretty clear in saying that it's a "direct commandment from the Lord". So, unless the Prophet was not in attendance that day (golfing?), it clearly indicates that God's position was as stated. The Prophet signed off on it.

If you hold yourself to be a believing Mormon, you have to accept it.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

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_SteelHead
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _SteelHead »

Ok, now produce the revelation referred to by the 78 official declaration.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_Willy Law
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _Willy Law »

Quasimodo wrote:
The First Presidency includes the Prophet, does it not? That statement is pretty clear in saying that it's a "direct commandment from the Lord". So, unless the Prophet was not in attendance that day (golfing?), it clearly indicates that God's position was as stated. The Prophet signed off on it.

If you hold yourself to be a believing Mormon, you have to accept it.


This is what sent me immediately running from apologetics. To make any of this crap work in your head you must toss prophets and apostles under the bus. How can anyone honestly argue that the priesthood ban was not a commandment from God?

It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord

Either you believe this crap or you don't. If you believe it, own it.
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
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_SteelHead
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _SteelHead »

Is there any statement more evident that the 15 are just making it up as they go than this?

Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
~Bruce R. McConkie


The fact that we swallow that kind of pap hook, line and sinker is proof of the gulibility of man when presented a great prize. Kind of like a Nigerian scammer:

We have $42 million for you if you will just send us $5k in processing fees.

How many have fallen for that Nigerian scam?

Pay your tithing (give me your females) and endure to the end and receive eternal life and family.
Any similarities?
Last edited by Guest on Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_maklelan
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _maklelan »

Quasimodo wrote:The First Presidency includes the Prophet, does it not?


Utterly irrelevant. This line of argumentation isn't going to get you anywhere. Save both of us the time.

Quasimodo wrote:That statement is pretty clear in saying that it's a "direct commandment from the Lord".


To whom? When? Are you reading it as indicating the prophet who signed off on it was directly commanded by the Lord? The text certainly doesn't indicate that.

Quasimodo wrote:So, unless the Prophet was not in attendance that day (golfing?), it clearly indicates that God's position was as stated. The Prophet signed off on it.

If you hold yourself to be a believing Mormon, you have to accept it.


Thanks for filling me in.
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_Willy Law
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _Willy Law »

maklelan wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:That statement is pretty clear in saying that it's a "direct commandment from the Lord".


To whom? When? Are you reading it as indicating the prophet who signed off on it was directly commanded by the Lord? The text certainly doesn't indicate that.


Please help me to understand where you are coming from. Are you arguing that a letter from the first presidency does not indicate that it has the approval of the prophet?
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
Bruce R. McConkie
_maklelan
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _maklelan »

Willy Law wrote:Please help me to understand where you are coming from. Are you arguing that a letter from the first presidency does not indicate that it has the approval of the prophet?


No, what I'm saying is that the vague comment that there's a direct commandment somewhere does not actually establish a direct commandment.
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_Quasimodo
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Re: What is God telling the prophets?

Post by _Quasimodo »

maklelan wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:The First Presidency includes the Prophet, does it not?


Utterly irrelevant. This line of argumentation isn't going to get you anywhere. Save both of us the time.

Quasimodo wrote:That statement is pretty clear in saying that it's a "direct commandment from the Lord".


To whom? When? Are you reading it as indicating the prophet who signed off on it was directly commanded by the Lord? The text certainly doesn't indicate that.

Quasimodo wrote:So, unless the Prophet was not in attendance that day (golfing?), it clearly indicates that God's position was as stated. The Prophet signed off on it.

If you hold yourself to be a believing Mormon, you have to accept it.


Thanks for filling me in.


:) Seemed like a pretty good argument to me. Your effort to create a gray area has been tried many times before. Logically, it just doesn't work.

I think I can save us both some time by saying that I understand your reasons for putting this thorn in your side to the back. You will have to honestly deal with this later, alone (wee small hours of the night).

Off topic, I consider anyone that likes to fish a friend.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
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