Family dies holding hands, praying

[_Hoops]

So, essentially, we're left with:

"I don't like that people were praying and they still died. I think God should have done something to save these people, I just don't know what. Since I don't like how God behaves, even though I don't understand Him, I still condemn Him."

Do I have this right aahs?

[_Themis]

I want the paradise God started with. You know, before Adam and Eve sinned and were given the boot, and the fall came about.

Wasn't the world supposed to be perfect then, and free from tornadoes, earthquakes, death and evil? I wonder why God just didn't punish Adam and Eve and start with a couple of new humans. Why did the billions of us who came after have to suffer because our first parents screwed up? How just is that?

It's easy to see that these stories are just fables told by people who had little knowledge of the world around them, and came up with what they liked or may have appeared reasonable considering there circumstances. I don't blame them, and would have probably done similar things if I lived back then.

[_Buffalo]

So, essentially, we're left with:

"I don't like that people were praying and they still died. I think God should have done something to save these people, I just don't know what. Since I don't like how God behaves, even though I don't understand Him, I still condemn Him."

Do I have this right aahs?

I think it would just be nice if God conformed to the same standard of decency expected of any one of us.

[_Drifting]

So He picks and chooses whom He helps and whom He doesn't - is that what you believe?

I think it is, based on your response above.

Do you think a persons prayer can make a difference to wether God acts or not?

I have answered your question. Now answer mine.

Hoops, God met my expectation.
I expected Him to do nothing, He did nothing.
He always does nothing, we are to fend for ourselves.

Now, do you think a persons prayers can make a difference to wether God acts or not?

[_Sethbag]

Clearly they want to paint God as a mean old magic genie in the sky that is ruthless in how he denies his worshipers their every desire.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? [seth's note: apparently Elohim]

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, abeing evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Clearly Jesus was just playing mind games with his followers when he taught them to ask of God for that which they need, and he would give it to them.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Any thing, that is, except being saved from a tornado. Or being cured of a disease. Or, really, anything else that would require some sort of divine intervention in the world. What a tease.

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Too bad the faithful, praying family, throwing themselves on the mercy of God, hadn't read the Bible correctly, and thus didn't understand that Jesus didn't cause these passages to be included in his word in order to serve as an example for them to emulate. Oh no, Jesus was keen on doing miracles all right, but not for us today, just for his disciples 2000 years ago. Or whatever the pathetic excuse-mongerers can rationalize to explain the apparent dearth of such miraculous doings in our day.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And now we get to the blame game part, where we can insinuate that maybe this praying family wasn't saved because they weren't worthy enough, that it was their own fault their prayers weren't answered. Maybe the dad had looked at porn, or the woman had masturbated while her husband was at work or something.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

I could go on and on, but I know that Hoops and others would just call me illiterate, assume I didn't understand the proper context, explain how Jesus was only talking to those specific people at that specific time, or some other such excuse. It can't be that I've actually read the Bible many times myself, and come to my own understanding, and that I once believed it as fervently as they believe whatever it is they believe, could it? I must have been doing it wrong. I just didn't get it. I'm not as Biblically smart and clever as they are, etc.

This family knelt on the floor and prayed to God for deliverance, believing that he could and would save them in answer to their petitions and faith in him, and he let the tornado gobble them up. Apparently the words in the Bible didn't mean what they thought they meant, or God's offer had expired, or they were unworthy, or they just did it wrong. Maybe one of the kids opened their eyes during the prayer. Maybe the father didn't close the prayer in the Nameofcheezchristamen.

[_Chap]

Oh brave new discussion board, that hath such Sethbags in it!

I like him even without his Life of Brian avatar ... which I miss, because the expression on the face was just right.

[_Tobin]

Sethbag,

I didn't say that people didn't have scriptural interpretations that they believe lead them to the idea that God is a magic genie in the sky. I take each instance that you cite only to mean gifts of the spirit or gifts of knowledge of God. If you want to make the case that it means God is a magic genie that will give us stuff, that is your prerogative. I don't think reality agrees with you however, and most definitely not in the case of this tornado.

[_cinepro]

The story of the family dying is sad, anyway you slice it.

But on the subject of God and tornadoes (and what he can and can't do), I've heard several version of the story of the Salt Lake Tornado of 1999 where the tornado is heading straight towards the Temple and then veers around it, as if by divine guidance. So it's not outside the world-view of at least a few LDS to believe that God will intervene with tornadoes at times.

Here's the story at HolyFetch:

http://www.holyfetch.com/legends/SLC_tornado.html



http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/3 ... -City.html

[_Chap]

I take each instance that you cite only to mean gifts of the spirit or gifts of knowledge of God.

Which, being interpreted, meaneth:

Clearly Jesus was just playing mind games with his followers when he taught them to ask of God for that which they need, and he would give it to them.

If you want to make the case that it means God is a magic genie that will give us stuff, that is your prerogative. I don't think reality agrees with you however, and most definitely not in the case of this tornado.

Sethbag is surely not saying what the Christian deity is (because I don't think he believes such an entity exists), but what the Bible apparently says he is. And his point (and mine) is that reality does not agree with the Biblical picture. Many modern Christians tacitly recognize that, and therefore give us all these 'spiritualiized' interpretations of things that Jesus's disciples very probably believed in in a quite straightforward sense.

[_Drifting]

And his point (and mine) is that reality does not agree with the Biblical picture.

Which is a tad inconvenient for religious types...