Photo banned on MDD: LGBT Civil Rights vs. Religious Freedom

[_Daniel2]

For the first time that I'm aware of, a post of mine was deleted on MDD. I was concerned that the photo may have been too controversial for some there--but, frankly, I was growing weary of several post-er's ongoing unsubstantiated scapegoating of LGBT couples' civil marriage equality as an attack on their religious freedoms (rather than placing the blame on anti-discrimination laws--a.k.a. the principles set forth in our Constitution).

Jwhitlock's two posts:

jwhitlock, on 08 March 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

You continue to ignore the point that gays already have full equality. I really don't get any cogent arguments from SSM supporters on the points I bring up; they never are addressed directly. Instead, they are rephrased in terms of "equality", which is a moot point. I'm aware that the courts will eventually grant gays the privilege they seek so they can punish religious freedom; there's no fantasy involved in that, just a cold, hard evaluation of what's already happening.

jwhitlock, on 09 March 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

The main points made in my argument still stand. It is not an issue of equality of rights; it is a new privilege that will be damaging to society in general, and will restrict religious and personal freedom of those who do not toe the line on the gay agenda.

Here's the post of mine, in response (the photo was deleted and the threat immediatley locked):

A picture is worth a thousand words...



Daniel2

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/571 ... ge__st__80

[_Buffalo]

That's classic! Good on you for having the patience to argue with all those knuckle draggers who think civil rights for minorities infringe on their right to hate gays. None of them have been able to come up with even one rational argument against gay marriage, and they never will. It all boils down to "gays make me feel icky."

[_Darth J]

At least we have brilliant constitutionalists like Subgenius to explain it all.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22898&start=42

[_Darth J]

jwhitlock, on 08 March 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

You continue to ignore the point that gays already have full equality. I really don't get any cogent arguments from SSM supporters on the points I bring up; they never are addressed directly. Instead, they are rephrased in terms of "equality", which is a moot point. I'm aware that the courts will eventually grant gays the privilege they seek so they can punish religious freedom; there's no fantasy involved in that, just a cold, hard evaluation of what's already happening.

jwhitlock, on 09 March 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

The main points made in my argument still stand. It is not an issue of equality of rights; it is a new privilege that will be damaging to society in general, and will restrict religious and personal freedom of those who do not toe the line on the gay agenda.

By "religious freedom," what he means is that special exception to the Establishment Clause that allows his cherished religious beliefs to be read into positive law.

[_Daniel2]

Thanks, Buffalo. I appreciate the supportive comments.

By way of defense of most Latter-day Saints (and I wish I could have posted this clarification over on MDD, too--so I'm hoping some see it, here):

My family are all active members of the LDS Faith, and none of them support civil marriage equality. Like most Latter-day Saints, they base their opposition to LGBT civil rights on their religiously-motivated beliefs about how the universe works, who they believe God to be, and the purpose and destiny of mankind. My family and I have had many, many conversations about gay issues in the seven years since I came out and left the LDS Faith. Leaving the church, while not easy, was the best decision for me, and I've never regretted it.

While I know you didn't state that all are motivated by "hate," I just want to clarify: I strongly feel that it's a disservice to the promotion of respectful dialogue and cause of civil equality to unfairly characterize all those who don't support gay civil rights as "hateful." From my own experience, that simply isn't true. "Misguided"...? Yes. "Willfully Ignorant"....? Sometimes. "Icky-motivated"....? Frequently! But genunine "hate"...? Not so much... at least, not in my experience--I think those are few and far between (and those that are "hateful," in my experience, are either usually a product of their culture, or are fighting their own innate homosexual attractions).

The cartoon I posed definiately pushed the envelop, and I knew it would likely make the most conservative posters uncomfortable. It was a risk for me to even have posted it. I'm fine with MDD's decision to remove it--it is, after all, their house, and I can understand they may have felt it was simply too inflammatory. I'm happy to share it here, rather than there, for those that aren't as offended by the concepts the cartoon illustrates.

Daniel2

[_Buffalo]

Thanks, Buffalo. I appreciate the supportive comments.

By way of defense of most Latter-day Saints (and I wish I could have posted this clarification over on MDD, too--so I'm hoping some see it, here):

My family are all active members of the LDS Faith, and none of them support civil marriage equality. Like most Latter-day Saints, they base their opposition to LGBT civil rights on their religiously-motivated beliefs about how the universe works, who they believe God to be, and the purpose and destiny of mankind. My family and I have had many, many conversations about gay issues in the seven years since I came out and left the LDS Faith. Leaving the church, while not easy, was the best decision for me, and I've never regretted it.

While I know you didn't state that all are motivated by "hate," I just want to clarify: I strongly feel that it's a disservice to the promotion of resquectful dialogue and cause of civil equality to unfairly characterize all those who don't support gay civil rights as "hateful." From my own experience, that simply isn't true. "Misguided"...? Yes. "Willfully Ignorant"....? Sometimes. "Icky-motivated"....? Frequently! But genunine "hate"...? Not so much... at least, not in my experience--I think those are few and far between (and those that are "hateful," in my experience, are either usually a product of their culture, or are fighting their own innate homosexual attractions).

The cartoon I posed definiately pushed the envelop, and I knew it would likely make the most conservative posters uncomfortable. It was a risk for me to even have posted it. I'm fine with MDD's decision to remove it--it is, after all, their house, and I can understand they may have felt it was simply too inflammatory. I'm happy to share it here, rather than there, for those that aren't as offended by the concepts the cartoon illustrates.

Daniel2

My wife more or less supports the church's stance on gay marriage. She definitely doesn't hate gays - but she can't make herself openly disagree with church leadership. I think if it weren't for that she'd definitely be pro-gay marriage.

[_Infymus]

Link to original source of pic please?

[_Daniel2]

Not sure where I came across it originally, Infymus. You can google "Quit Squirming, gay civil rights, political cartoon" and it's posted on various blogs. No one seems to know who the artist is, and I'm not sure what the original source is.

[_Daniel2]

Here's another couple of good ones:







http://dekerivers.wordpress.com/2011/06 ... -cartoons/

[_Daniel2]

http://www.jbs-blog.com/?cat=9