Seriously? Dark skin was a metaphor?

[_Mary]

Tobin, No. I am not an atheist at the moment. Doubt I ever will be. I find the work of Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff extremely appealing in terms of a quantum theory of the mind. I know the theory has its critics and of course remains unproven.

I do think that if there is a God or supreme Being, or universal consciousness, that we are expected to work things out for ourselves. Study it out in our minds. That's what I have done and try to continue to do.

At the moment, I feel that the preponderance of evidence suggests that the Book of Mormon is not historical. I also feel that the Bible itself has mythical, historical, and purely fictitious elements.

I don't subscribe to the LDS article of faith that suggests that the 'Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly'.

I believe the Bible and the Book of Mormon to be the word of men, with inspiration perhaps in part from a divine consciousness.

I think there is much in the Bible and Book of Mormon that are actually very destructive and misleading to the human spirit and to happiness as well as much that is very constructive and good.

That's how I stand right now.

[_Tator]

I'd suggest you work on that God thing first.

I have. I actually believe in God. I always have. BUT God is still silent. I still have a brain, one that works and the Bible and its people existed, the geography existed, etc. I can't read Hebrew or Reformed Egyptian but I can find you examples of the Hebrew written language. Can you find me an example of written Reformed Egyptian?

I'd suggest you work on those things called common sense, logic and facts first.

Mormonism is impossible to believe in without a God.

This is a strange statement. God or your brand of talking God? You can believe anything you want without God, with a silent God or a talking God, how is it impossible to believe?

You just want it to be true, no matter what. I've been there done that.

[_Themis]

However, if you believe in God and believe God can answer you, then ask him. Go with whatever answer God gives you. I think that is all that Mormons ask.

Did you ask God about man being able to become a God, and if God was once a man?

LOL I see tobin is avoiding these kind of questions. I guess is has not really done what he advises all of us to do. Not that we haven't spent years asking God.

[_Brackite]

FAIR apparently thinks that the dark skin in the Book of Mormon was a metaphor.


Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Curse:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Lamanites/Curse


The 1949 First Presidency's Statement says that the black skin is a curse.
Here is again the 1949 First Presidency's Statement:

August 17, 1949


The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? it comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the Law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to."


President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: "The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have."


The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege of is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.


The First Presidency

(Bold Emphasize Mine.)



The LDS Church should issue an apology for the Priesthood ban. It was wrong.

[_thews]

Thews, the Book of Mormon like the Bible gives contradictory information. That's what you get when men attempt to interpret and outline the will of God. Your portrayal of Consiglieri is unwarranted, unfair and shameful.

Shameful? You have a right to your opinion, but Consiglieri is a teacher to itching ears. He knows all the references to skin color, yet ditches all those known references to spin what he considers a possible gray area using dark vs. darkness. What difference does this one rabbit hole make? You know what it is, it's what's taught to those that attend the teachings of Consigieri. They walk away from his teachings with a sense of calmness thinking their fears were unwarranted. Understand this...

http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

Doctrine supported by LDS Scriptures.
2 Nephi 5: 21

'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6

'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'

What part of skin color did you miss? Did you drink some Consiglieri KoolAid in the hopes it meant evil upon their souls? Consiglieri lies to the people he teaches... they don't know they're being lied to. Know this...

http://biblelight.net/false-prophets.htm

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

To Consiglieri.. the next time your subconscious mind speaks to you telling you that you know what you're teaching is a lie, know that you're lies are intentional. Your words are a mark of your craft as you deceive those who trust you... a false witness.

Proverbs 19:9

New International Version (NIV)

9 A false witness will not go unpunished,
and whoever pours out lies will perish.

[_thews]

Thews, the Book of Mormon like the Bible gives contradictory information. That's what you get when men attempt to interpret and outline the will of God. Your portrayal of Consiglieri is unwarranted, unfair and shameful.

I agree that thews goes way over board. Consig is one of my favorite posters. He is fair and well thought out. I would say that we need to remember that words light light dark, black, white, and even skin color can be used in many ways, and have different meanings. This is why context is important, and why the text in 2 Nephi loses meaning when we try to create a different meaning to skin of blackness to make them less enticing.

Really? Please decipher this so that I can understand your supposed point:

http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

2 Nephi 5: 21

'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

[_thews]

Thews has gotten me to thinking about another aspect where the Book of Mormon gives conflicting views, and this is related to the Jews. Yes, the Jew view.

Nephi is very hard on the Jews , saying their works were "works of darkness." (2 Nephi 25:2) (Whoops! There's that word, "darkness," again. Hello darkness, my old friend.)

Taken by itself, this sounds anti-semitic.

Other comments by Nephi about the Jews soften the edges. He stands up for the Jews against Gentiles who will proclaim the Bible is the only word of God and forget from whom it came: "And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?" (2 Nephi 29:4)

In another place, Nephi gives the Jews kudos for their superior understanding of the scriptures: "And I know that the Jews do understand the things of the prophets, and there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them." (2 Nephi 25:5)

We can understand why Nephi would have a beef with the Jews at Jerusalem in his day who tried to kill his dad and were the cause (to his mind) of Jerusalem being destroyed and his family having to take to their heels and leave their home.

But Nephi's reverence for the Jews nevertheless comes out in other places, indicating he is conflicted on the issue.

This is what I mean by trying to understand the Book of Mormon as a whole rather than trying to use certain proof-texts to advance a particular position.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

More BS. Your lies just pile atop each other in the hopes someone agrees with your BS. You know the truth. You know all about seer stones placed in a hat yet remain silent. You know all about the curse of Cain being black skin... that's the truth. Do you fancy yourself a respectable liar? Do the stories you have made up make you feel better about the people you've intentionally deceived? Someday Consiglieri, you will meet your maker. Then and only then you can explain why you chose to deceive people by withholding the truth and creating arguments based on distortion in order to deceive them... sleep well.

[_ldsfaqs]

More BS. Your lies just pile atop each other in the hopes someone agrees with your BS. You know the truth.

The only "BS" is coming from you....

You know all about seer stones placed in a hat yet remain silent.

And this is a problem how???
Clearly you don't know your Bible in which Prophets "often" used stones with "revelatory" powers.

You know all about the curse of Cain being black skin... that's the truth.

haa haa.... It's not at all the truth, because those only banned from the Priesthood were those of African Lineage, no matter their skin color. Not only that, but many other races that were just as black or close to African black WERE given the Priesthood, from India, to Central/South America, the Islands, etc.

The "curse" was the denial of the Priesthood for a particular lineage, correct or not.

Do you fancy yourself a respectable liar? Do the stories you have made up make you feel better about the people you've intentionally deceived? Someday Consiglieri, you will meet your maker. Then and only then you can explain why you chose to deceive people by withholding the truth and creating arguments based on distortion in order to deceive them... sleep well.

Odd that I'm defending Consig, even though I know he wouldn't care or want it, the fact is is that it is YOU who are the immoral person here. We are the Mormons. We are the ones who know our religion, and it is YOU who pervert it, and it is YOU who serve the evil one by using a little truth to tell great lies, distorting what is actually true.

Enjoy your sin.....

[_Drifting]

Here is Mark E Peterson speaking 'metaphorically'...

“Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our WORTHINESS OR LACK OF IT in the pre-existent life?...can we account in any other of way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest AFRICA, or in flood-ridden CHINA, or among the starving hordes of INDIA, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter-day Saints. THESE ARE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with SINNERS AND SAINTS, rewarding all according to their deeds....

“Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. A Chinese, born in China with A DARK SKIN, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity. But think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. IN SPITE OF WHATEVER THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE TO JUSTIFY BEING BORN OVER THERE AS CHINAMEN, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?

“Think of the Negro, CURSED AS TO THE PRIESTHOOD.... This negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a BLACK SKIN, and possibly being born in darkest Africa—if that negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. IN SPITE OF ALL HE DID IN THE PRE-EXISTENT LIFE, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there AS A SERVANT, but he will get celestial glory.”

[_Themis]

Really? Please decipher this so that I can understand your supposed point:

Ok. You are an ass and he is not. Clear enough for you. I may not agree with consig on a number of LDS issue, and I think he looks to hard to make things fit as he is doing with the black skin being metaphor, but he behaves well all the time, and is much more desirable to discuss issues with. You are not, regardless of whether you are correct or not. You may want to consider that you will get farther with people by behaving better.