"I know the Church is twoo"

[_Yoda]

I am honestly unsure. My sense is that it is more likely that Joseph simply authored the Book of Mormon through inspiration.

Thanks for your candidness.

This is the question I was leading to.
In the event that one disbelieves Joseph's claims about the Book of Mormon (which really means one believes Joseph didn't tell the truth) how is it possible for God to inspire through what is, effectively, a fraud?

God inspires through grey areas all the time.

I don't believe everything in the Bible, either.

[_harmony]

God inspires through grey areas all the time.

I don't believe everything in the Bible, either.

A fraud? Moses killed a man, and then hid his body. That makes him a murderer. Somehow a fraud doesn't look so bad, in that context.

[_Buffalo]

Did it seem like a charade to you?

It's no more a charade than ANY teaching at a young age of what one considers to be true; scientific, religious, or whatever.

That being said, I think most LDS will agree they are also encouraged to develop their own testimony at the appropriate time.

If teachers taught science like LDS kids get taught religion, there would be accusations of brainwashing in school, too.

[_Buffalo]

The question is if you were prompted to say things before you'd developed your own testimony of them.

by the way, what is the 'appropriate' time?

When you're old enough so that not having a testimony will make you an outcast in your community and unable to date girls.

[_Doctor Scratch]

I think that this sort of prompted testimony-bearing is really only one element of the "education" or "behavior modification" that kids in the Church are "forced"/encouraged to do. There is all kinds of pressure that is placed on kids: to go on a mission, to not masturbate, to bear one's testimony, to accompany the Elders to collect fast offering payments, and so on.

As to whether this is toxic and/or "brainwashing," I think it's debatable, and that it depends on the individual kid and how the parents negotiate all of it. But the pressure is clearly there.

[_sock puppet]

I think that this sort of prompted testimony-bearing is really only one element of the "education" or "behavior modification" that kids in the Church are "forced"/encouraged to do. There is all kinds of pressure that is placed on kids: to go on a mission, to not masturbate, to bear one's testimony, to accompany the Elders to collect fast offering payments, and so on.

As to whether this is toxic and/or "brainwashing," I think it's debatable, and that it depends on the individual kid and how the parents negotiate all of it. But the pressure is clearly there.

Well, we know what flows downhill. The Church puts the responsibility of indoctrinating children onto their parents, who then perform their 'duty', out of threat that the sins of the children will be 'upon the heads of the parents'.

And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

Of course, I am sure that the defenders will claim that "the Church" does not play on fears of the parents in this regard.

[_consiglieri]

I sure am glad now I never did this with any of my kids.

Bearing a testimony is supposed to be a public sharing of one's own personal beliefs.

It is obviously something different than that when a person is just repeating what is told them.

And when those parrots are two and three year olds, yeah, it does look a lot like brainwashing.

I think the blowback from that may be worse than expected, though, because what do those kids do when they grow up and think they have a testimony because they have been bearing it since they could repeat what their mom or dad whispered and then stumble upon this message board?

Major blowback.

Probably better for kids to be raised with the idea that a testimony is something they need to work on to get for themselves, and they shouldn't think they have a testimony until they really do.

I know this idea is taught in church, but it seems to be undercut by the brainwashing mentioned in the OP.

It is also undercut, I think, when people without a testimony say that they just always had a testimony, only they didn't realize it.

Like you can have a testimony without knowing it?

I don't know. This has always sounded kind of lame to me. "I just always knew it was true."

Anyway, just some judgmental musings on a Tuesday morning.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

It's twoo! It's twoo! Isn't that what Madeline Kahn said when the lights went out in Blazing Saddles?

http://movieclips.com/UwWVX-blazing-sad ... oes-black/

[_DarkHelmet]

by the way, what is the 'appropriate' time?

I haven't seen young children do this in a long time.

That's because you don't go to church. Keep in mind that this board is about Mormonism.

[_DarkHelmet]

I think that this sort of prompted testimony-bearing is really only one element of the "education" or "behavior modification" that kids in the Church are "forced"/encouraged to do.

Indeed. Whenever I see a group of primary kids chanting "Follow the prophet, Follow the prophet, Follow the prophet, Don't go astray. Follow the prophet, Follow the prophet, Follow the prophet, he knows the way" it makes me think of North Korea.

[_why me]

And when those parrots are two and three year olds, yeah, it does look a lot like brainwashing.

I think the blowback from that may be worse than expected, though, because what do those kids do when they grow up and think they have a testimony because they have been bearing it since they could repeat what their mom or dad whispered and then stumble upon this message board?

Major blowback.

--Consiglieri

I think that you are overblowing the blowback. It is really no big deal. But parents who do this are perhaps embarrassing themselves. But most likely it is a family tradition. But I haven't seen parents do this for many years now. And what should a parent do if their seven year old wants to give their testimony? Say no?