God's Commandments: keeping them makes us happy

[_asbestosman]

It is unfortunate that even the title of his talk teaches people that they are not worthy of mercy unless they earn it. *sigh*

Still:

the one who is most in need of our forgiveness—is the person looking back at us in the mirror

Sounds like he's saying everyone is worthy of treating themselves with compassion. Maybe he could have worded things differently?

[_just me]

It is unfortunate that even the title of his talk teaches people that they are not worthy of mercy unless they earn it. *sigh*

Still:

the one who is most in need of our forgiveness—is the person looking back at us in the mirror

Sounds like he's saying everyone is worthy of treating themselves with compassion. Maybe he could have worded things differently?

I'll be honest and say I have not read the talk. Maybe I should not comment on it until I have.

[_just me]

Okay, yeah, I'm not really impressed. I'm sorry. There is the vilification of normal human emotions. He grants that they are something everyone experiences but that they are WRONG and we know it.

He goes on to explain that forgiveness (the mercy of Christ) is conditional. Ouch! Oh, and one of my all time favorite destructive teachings that if you cannot forgive someone that the GREATER SIN lies with you. Wow. So if a woman can't bring herself to forgive her rapist she is in a worse spiritual position than he. Nice. (sorry, I really hate that one...and I do believe that eventual forgiveness may be in the ultimate best interest of the survivor)

Of course, we know this is wrong. The doctrine is clear. We all depend on the Savior; none of us can be saved without Him. Christ’s Atonement is infinite and eternal. Forgiveness for our sins comes with conditions. We must repent, and we must be willing to forgive others. Jesus taught: “Forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not … [stands] condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin”3 and “Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.”4

His request of people to just "stop it" is rather unhelpful. People cannot stop being human. Also, pushing away (repressing) negative feelings is not a cure for them. They don't go away like that. It is better to non-judgmentally feel them and allow it to pass. Realize that those feelings occur in everyone once in a while and it's not that big of a deal.

I do like this part:

Let us be kind.

Let us forgive.

Let us talk peacefully with each other.

Let the love of God fill our hearts.

“Let us do good unto all men.

That is a nice mantra that can help cultivate feelings of goodwill. People should chant that every morning.

[_asbestosman]

People cannot stop being human.

True.



Anyhow, for what it's worth people I know who have left the church had mixed feelings on it. They like the idea of having Mormons be less judgmental or hating those who are different (like homosexuals) but aren't too crazy about the idea of anyone being less judgmental about, say, Elder Packer.

There is the vilification of normal human emotions. He grants that they are something everyone experiences but that they are WRONG and we know it.

Well, from a scriptural point of view he is correct. It may have significant drawbacks, but it follows from the idea that we owe God more than anyone else owes us. Thus the core problem here is that when we do something less than absolute perfect--even if it's common and not really a big deal--is enough to separate us from God and therefore required the atonement which puts us in a greater debt to Him than anyone else is to us.

Now I don't get to change doctrine, but imagine we could. I wonder if there's a way to make the atonement work and be universally necessary without vilifying universal peccadilloes. Perhaps one could see the small stuff as automatically covered by the atonement? That would still make them wrong, but not something to worry much about. It'd be a free gift like the resurrection.

Ah, if it were up to me I'd just have everyone get to live how they want in the afterlife--other than that I'd prevent people from bothering others. Why can't we just make that heaven? If you like to hurt people, then your punishment is that you're prevented from doing so.

Or maybe we can let people who want to hurting others think they are without actually letting them hurt anyone. Maybe we'll even give them a few masochists for those who are in to that sort of thing.

The possibilities are endless--and maybe even eternal.

That's also probably why I'm not God.

[_just me]

People cannot stop being human.

True.



Anyhow, for what it's worth people I know who have left the church had mixed feelings on it. They like the idea of having Mormons be less judgmental or hating those who are different (like homosexuals) but aren't too crazy about the idea of anyone being less judgmental about, say, Elder Packer.

This is a very good point. I surmise that it could be because people generally carry the same thought processes and attitudes over to their new belief/lack of belief system. Also, we tend to be more condemning/judgmental of people who we believe have harmed us in some way or whom we perceive as being other.

I think that healing our wounds-showing ourselves compassion for the suffering we feel-can help us to feel more forgiving and understanding of the human imperfections in those around us. Even those who have harmed us.

There is the vilification of normal human emotions. He grants that they are something everyone experiences but that they are WRONG and we know it.

Well, from a scriptural point of view he is correct. It may have significant drawbacks, but it follows from the idea that we owe God more than anyone else owes us. Thus the core problem here is that when we do something less than absolute perfect--even if it's common and not really a big deal--is enough to separate us from God and therefore required the atonement which puts us in a greater debt to Him than anyone else is to us.

Now I don't get to change doctrine, but imagine we could. I wonder if there's a way to make the atonement work and be universally necessary without vilifying universal peccadilloes. Perhaps one could see the small stuff as automatically covered by the atonement? That would still make them wrong, but not something to worry much about. It'd be a free gift like the resurrection.

Ah, if it were up to me I'd just have everyone get to live how they want in the afterlife--other than that I'd prevent people from bothering others. Why can't we just make that heaven? If you like to hurt people, then your punishment is that you're prevented from doing so.

Or maybe we can let people who want to hurting others think they are without actually letting them hurt anyone. Maybe we'll even give them a few masochists for those who are in to that sort of thing.

The possibilities are endless--and maybe even eternal.

That's also probably why I'm not God.

Well, for me, letting go of the atonement concept was one of the most freeing and happy things i have done. The basic doctrine behind the atonement is that human beings are not good enough the way they are. I think that is just sad and damaging. And having to be good enough in order to earn the atonement is even worse.

For those who have a desire to hold on to the doctrine of atonement as taught by LDS, I am not sure what the answer is.

I actually think there are very few people who *want* to harm and hurt others. (fetishes and kinks aside...) Those who do I honestly feel have mental illnesses and have had other traumas in their lives that have caused them to become that way. *shrugs* Or maybe I am too optimistic about humanity.

[_MrStakhanovite]

What do you think?

Completely out of tune with the Hebrew scriptures to the point of near self parody. This kind of thinking was promoted by Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphaz which was later soundly rebuked in Job.

[_Tobin]

Well, for me, letting go of the atonement concept was one of the most freeing and happy things i have done. The basic doctrine behind the atonement is that human beings are not good enough the way they are. I think that is just sad and damaging. And having to be good enough in order to earn the atonement is even worse.
For those who have a desire to hold on to the doctrine of atonement as taught by LDS, I am not sure what the answer is.

No. Mormons don't believe we can EARN the atonement. That makes no sense. After all, what can man do to pay God? We are saved by the atonement of Christ by the grace and goodness of God. I will admit that many Mormons focus on deeds in the hope that it will ensure their salvation, but this is mostly a delusion on their part. They should do good deeds because they love God, wish to follow him, and serve their fellow man. It is a fiction to think that one can earn salvation in such a way though.

[_1 Iron]

Hi Just Me,

One of the problems with the way the church teaches to keep God's commandments is that they use external reasons to do so. Either fear of punishment/rejection or hope of acceptance/blessings/eternal reward. Neither of those methods are good long-term. They also cause major issues with how people feel about themselves. The feel like s*** every time the don't live up to the expectations...and let's face it, LDS expectations are some of the highest out there.

So, often times, people end up feeling unhappy and dissatisfied rather than "more free and happy." It's a vicious cycle that is hard to get out of.

I think there is also a huge problem with teaching people that they can control their thoughts and then saying over and over "don't think about a white bear." What a destructive thing to do to people!

I agree with you. While in institute, I had an instructor who gave what he called the parable of the tree. He would tell us, "I want you to stop thinking about trees. Don't think about birch trees, apple trees, willows, or palm trees. Don't think about cherry trees, pine trees, spruce trees or most damaging - ginko trees!" He would list an extensive range of trees. Then, after a pause, he would ask, "How many of you are thinking about trees right now?" Of course, we all were. It was his analogy for why he preferred to teach the gospel of Christ rather than spend so much time on the "Thou shalt not's".

It can be hard to not focus on the trees, either as a teacher or leader as well as in the quiet moments of the soul when one is seeking the presence of God. Like Moses, it's easy to feel at those times that we are so far away from Him by His proximity.

Moses 1:9-10

9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

Actually, teaching people that they can have complete control over their thoughts and actions (and reactions) just seems to harmful to me. We are such complicated animals. We are going to react I negative ways or do stupid stuff sometimes. If we could control ourselves we wouldn't do embarrassing, stupid stuff ever.

Teaching that God or the Spirit leaves you for not being perfect-FOR BEING HUMAN-is so tragic. What good is the Comforter if it leaves you when you feel horrible about yourself and the stupid things you do? No good at all!

When I think about this, I am reminded that it doesn't matter so much who we are in total. I don't know if others feel this way, but the scripture that gives me comfort is this one -

Alma 41:3, 5-7

3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

...

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.

7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.

[/quote]

In the end it is our desire - our heart felt longing for God, the good, and the righteous - that matters. You're so right to point out we can't control our thoughts or whether we will fall down again and again. But we are taught that we have it in us to desire to stand again. And it is according to this desire that we will be restored and made perfect at the resurrection.

In the end, I think what matters is similar to the analogy about parents setting rules. Good parents don't make up rules, whether it's because they want their kids to be happy or from some other motivation. Parents point out the rules of life that they have discovered and do their best to help their children find themselves one day healthy, self-fulfilled adults with all the promise and potential in the world.

It can become so easy to forget that moment when we knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that we had been forgiven for our sins; that Christ in His mercy stood in our place to bear - not just the sins of the world, but my sins. Do you remember how that felt? How you knew God loved you - for you, no conditions? And in that love you found it easy to forgive others because that was how God's love works? I shouldn't presume you felt this, but I know I did and I have to hope that your experience in the gospel included this same experience.

At one point in my life, I was a rough and tumble teenager. I don't think I was particularly bad even by LDS standards but for some reason I had fallen into the trap you describe. I can become certain that I wasn't worthy to return to God and nothing I could do would change that. And I was kind of right. Where I was wrong is that I could do the thing that mattered most - I changed my desire to return to Him no matter how unworthy. And in honest prayer for forgiveness I was given my own Moses experience. I didn't see God like Moses. But I know this - Christ took a boy who was blind to the suffering of others and He gave him eyes to see. He took a boy who was crippled and lame and healed him so he could be His arm in serving others. He took a boy who was deaf to other's pain and gave him ears to hear.

He healed me. And I love Him with all of my heart for this.

This is being free. Free from the trap, the pain. Free to become the eternal being like He has become. And He's showing us the way.

[_why me]

What do you think? Does living the way outlined in this article make people happier and more free than people who do not?

What is happiness? No one can be happy 100 percent of the time. Perhaps contentment is a better word for happiness. Contentment brings happiness. People who are addicted to alcohol are not free. Likewise people addicted to drugs are not free. Likewise, people obsessed with their body are not free. Likewise, people addicted to shopping are not free. Nor are any of these people truly happy.

The church stresses repentance as a way to maintain contentment and peace.

Are the majority of people on this board, happy and free? It doesn't seem so. And are they content? It doesn't seem so if I go by many of the posts that show angst. But I could be wrong. That being said, I do believe that many on the board have embraced what they thought was good in the LDS faith even though they are no longer members of the church. And this has brought them some contentment in raising their own children or in how they do life on a one to one basis with their fellow human beings.

Happiness seems to have distorted meanings in today's world. And that could be the problem.