Hoops Has Turned Agnostic/Atheist

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

After reading through many of Hoops' posts I'm reminded of Tertullian who was quoted as saying, "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

I'm not sure how there can be a Heaven when people who are there know their fellow Man is being tortured for eternity. That's a cold heart to have...

- VRDRC

[_Drifting]

After reading through many of Hoops' posts I'm reminded of Tertullian who was quoted as saying, "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

I'm not sure how there can be a Heaven when people who are there know their fellow Man is being tortured for eternity. That's a cold heart to have...

- VRDRC

I think that when you consider the terrible suffering that God allows to befall His children here on earth it becomes easier to imagine a deity that could allow Hell to exist for some of His offspring.

[_huckelberry]

You say that you "think arts ability to directly picture human relationship to divine is limited to nonexistent." Then you'd tend to believe that the Vatican screwed up with that whole 'Sistine Chapel' thing, right?

A sentiment about the Sistine Chapel I find next to incomprehensible. Coming back to this after some hours I see the problem may be, at least in part, my using an irregular use of the word picture.

If I try to take your question seriously I notice that my thinking does start with rather puritan notions about worship and our relationship to Gods Spirit in worship as something outside of images. It is an immediate and living relationship which is quite appropriate and possible in a room with no decoration. Yet I have no difficulty in following a path of connection between worship and images.

For the Sistine Chapel I can realize these vivid human forms are also presenting Bible stories. I can follow the path from remembering the stories to basic Christian doctrines and themes for contemplation. A reminder of our coming death may be catalist to consider life more deeply. So I see a path from the images to actual worship. It is a perambulation many people can make.

But as a actual matter of looking at the Michelangelo images there is a different dimension of spirit at work than a doctrine path. It is a touching upon our sense of human dignity and value contained in the depth of conception of human figures. That dimesion comes both from immediate experience and the whole Greek history of art he is reaching out to draw upon. The quality of human figures repeats throughout the work which reinforces its presence in the famous creation image. (doesn't that directly picture Gods relationship to humans? ) That image is not my worship nor a revelation. Instead I see a fundamental human sense of human value being presented as a human witness toward and in dialogue with, the Church doctrine that, in the beginning God created.

Maybe that helps explain why I was thinking of art as picturing the realm of human experience and history. That and thinking of picturing as what is coming from inside instead of picture as subject matter of an image.

[_Dr. Shades]

Once again: How does art prove the existence of God?

It doesn't.

Then why, in your (fictional) narrative, did you state that you went to an art museum and converted back to religion?

[_Buffalo]

Then why, in your (fictional) narrative, did you state that you went to an art museum and converted back to religion?

She'll never give you a straight answer.