Joseph's Swamp

[_beastie]

As damaging as the "bank" (scare quotes because it wasn't a legal bank at all) caused, it still pales in comparison to Joseph using his religious influence to induce people who likely had no idea of what they were getting into to buy land in a place that he knew was a mortal threat.

[_MCB]

Why do you think that Joseph Smith knew that it was a disease-infested swamp? Did he have an opportunity to visit before making the purchase?

While the Saints were being driven out of Missouri, the Prophet Joseph Smith remained incarcerated in Liberty Jail. While still in jail, the Prophet made plans for the purchase of land in Illinois, known as Commerce (Nauvoo), for the Saints to settle. When Joseph and his companions escaped, they joined the Saints in Quincy and immediately carried out their plans to purchase the Commerce area from Isaac Galland and Hugh White. By July 1839, the Saints began to settle this area.

No, he did not. Did anyone visit? If they did, it may have been winter-time, and Galland and White were chuckling and rubbing their hands with glee.

Yes, those who arrived later to be sorely disappointed, were victims of fraud. Joseph Smith and his friends just passed the fraud on to others, because they could not acknowledge an error in judgment, because Joseph Smith was a prophet, and should have known better.

They could not take Galland and White to court for their fraud, because Joseph Smith's own fraud would have been exposed.

As for the hostility of the locals, could it have been because Mormons were eager to gain possession of better land.

As for going West, blaming the locals was yet another excuse for blaming others for a serious error in judgment. They needed to get out of that pest-hole.

Once you start lying you start digging---

[_MCB]

OK, still digesting this. I read somewhere that a group of Natives met with Joseph Smith to complain about Mormons stealing their land. He said that the Mormons had paid for the land, therefore, it belonged to the Mormons, whether or not the people who sold the land to the Mormons were committing fraud or not.

Where is the source for that?

[_Fence Sitter]

Didn't the purchase include more land on the Iowa side? Even though he may have not seen the land before it was purchased he still had options where he would build. As Flanders says:

"It is impossible to know exactly why Smith chose to locate his new city where he did on the Illinois side... perhaps the location for Nauvoo was largely a matter of expediency, or even accident. Smith knew the reputation of the place for sickness, but he disregarded it."

Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Missippi p.38

[_MCB]

Didn't the purchase include more land on the Iowa side?

Yes-- but this was Indian land-- the half-breed tract-- and Isaac Galland had sold the Mormons FORGED quit-claim deeds. Apparently, few of the Mormons were willing to settle on the Iowa side because of the questionable nature of the land ownership.

Again, that relates directly to my question.

[Guest]

See a trend here?

At what point does Smith become responsible for his actions?

How is the vatican bank doing? No problems there right?

LOL, nice try at a dodge there. We're not talking about the Vatican, now are we?

If you want to talk about the Vatican, why don't you start a thread about it over at CAF?

Oh wait, that's right, you can't............you're BANNED!!!!!

[_hobo1512]

You realize mo investors pulled out too right?

This is what happens when there is a panic. No different today. Capitalism is capitalism. But the bank was not a con job.

Ah, but you blamed it all on the "anti-mormons". Now we see there were mo's in there too.

But according to you, it is all the anti's fault.

Getting dizzy from going around in circles yet?

[_hobo1512]

Bushman is a great reference for why the bank failed. Let's look at what he has to say in the pages referenced,

From Bushman’s RSR Pg 330-2

Please read the bottom of page 330 and get back to me. The sentence says: Meanwhile, Joseph's enemies attacked.

And then get back to me.

The bank was not a con job but an honest way to raise the capital needed for the saints. Unfortunately, the bank failed but so did other banks at that time. The banking crisis of 1837 was a result of a banking bubble that can also be seen in 2008. Bad luck.

LMAO, you're the one that gave the book, and pages to reference, and all you can come up with is one small statement on the first page you referenced?

So much for reading comprehension.

[_MCB]

Amazing-- simply amazing. I am looking at more sources on the subject. Every person who went to Commerce (Nauvoo) 1839-1840 reported serious illnesses and death.

[_beastie]

One of the dangers of religion is its potential to convince people that this life doesn't matter, in terms of suffering. Even if obedience to God's will (as conveyed by the human messenger, of course) brings unnecessary suffering, or even death, it's A-Ok.

That's the tone of this article that MCB kindly copied for me.

Sickness and disease were party of the way of life for the Saints in Nauvoo. Every journal account of Nauvoo reflected this fact. However, despite their high death rates and struggles for survival, the Saints remained strong and even grew in their faith. Consequently, as they left Nauvoo, they were better prepared for the struggles of Winter Quarters and beyond.

They were weak and sick, but "better prepared" because they were willing to endure unnecessary suffering, even watch their own children die, for God.

And through this, Joseph continued to encourage immigrants to settle in an area that he knew was a death-hole. And did so in the "name of the Lord."

Personally, that tells me everything about Joseph Smith that I need to know.