Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_zeezrom
_Emeritus
Posts: 11938
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:57 pm

Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _zeezrom »

Hello fabulous people!

I found this partial quote from the BYU Corpus of LDS General Conference talks (see below). It was given by President Joseph F. Smith in 1913. That is all the information I can find about it. I click on the links adjacent to the listed talk but this is all I find. Is there a way to look at the entire talk?

...on the streets of Paris, from whence these debasing fashions come. They are the lowest and most degraded specimens of womankind, who have yielded their bodies to crime and their souls to death, if not to perdition, and are devoid of modesty and the sense of shame. We can not afford to let our women follow such as these or to adopt the cursed fashions they set. I need not dwell on this matter, but will say that while crossing the street the other day, I saw a woman dressed to the height of this ridiculous fashion, and she was trotting along with little, short steps, she couldn't go any other way, hurrying across the street to catch the car. She got hold of the rail of the car and tried to lift herself up, but her foot would not go up to the step. By this time there was a crowd of men looking on. All of a sudden she stooped down, caught the bottom of her dress and raised it high enough to climb up. What an exhibition that...


by the way, isn't this just a lovely excerpt from the mouthpiece of God on High?

Have a WONDERFUL day!

Zee.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _Drifting »

zeezrom wrote:Hello fabulous people!

I found this partial quote from the BYU Corpus of LDS General Conference talks (see below). It was given by President Joseph F. Smith in 1913. That is all the information I can find about it. I click on the links adjacent to the listed talk but this is all I find. Is there a way to look at the entire talk?

...on the streets of Paris, from whence these debasing fashions come. They are the lowest and most degraded specimens of womankind, who have yielded their bodies to crime and their souls to death, if not to perdition, and are devoid of modesty and the sense of shame. We can not afford to let our women follow such as these or to adopt the cursed fashions they set. I need not dwell on this matter, but will say that while crossing the street the other day, I saw a woman dressed to the height of this ridiculous fashion, and she was trotting along with little, short steps, she couldn't go any other way, hurrying across the street to catch the car. She got hold of the rail of the car and tried to lift herself up, but her foot would not go up to the step. By this time there was a crowd of men looking on. All of a sudden she stooped down, caught the bottom of her dress and raised it high enough to climb up. What an exhibition that...


by the way, isn't this just a lovely excerpt from the mouthpiece of God on High?

Have a WONDERFUL day!

Zee.


Well, as it's been published by the Church we can safely conclude it is official doctrine.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _Morley »

Zee, try http://www.boap.org/LDS/Presidents/F-Joseph-F-Smith.txt and do a search on "Paris." I think what you want starts on 'October 1913, p.8.'
_zeezrom
_Emeritus
Posts: 11938
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:57 pm

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _zeezrom »

Thank you Morley!

Okay, so I'm finally able to piece together the quotes that make up the source of the material used in the talk that Just Me mentioned earlier.

Here is the whole of it:

Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1912, p.133

...I want to say to our Relief Societies, our Young Ladies' Mutual Improvement Associations and our Primary Associations that I desire and sincerely hope they will set their faces like flint against every immoral thing, including the prevailing habit of card-playing, of unbecoming fashions in dressing, of indecent exposure of the human form divine to the lecherous gaze of men; that they clothe themselves
in decency, both in public and in private, and that they keep sacred those things which have been conferred upon them in holy places.

...I expect that my sisters will listen to this counsel, for it is not mine; it is the counsel of the spirit and letter of the word of God as we have it in the divine records; it is God's will, and those who are entrusted with these important duties in the Church should be vigilant in guarding the welfare, the happiness, and good name and character of the daughters of Zion.


and

Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1913, p.8.

I do not want to be burdensome to this vast congregation by talking too long but I have another thought that weighs upon my mind, and this is not in relation to the men, but it is with respect to the women, and more particularly with regard to the manner in which they dress.

Never, perhaps, at least within the period of my life--and I have lived in the world nearly seventy-five years--never, I say, within the period of my life and experience have I seen such obscene, uncleanly, impure, and suggestive fashions of women's dress as I see today. Some of them are abominable. I lift my voice against these audacious practices and these infamous fashions, and I pray that you who have daughters in Zion will save them, if you can, from following these obscene fashions, that if followed, will destroy the last vestige of true womanly modesty, and reduce them to the level of the courtesans on the streets of Paris, from whence these debasing fashions come.

They are the lowest and most degraded specimens of womankind, who have yielded their bodies to crime and their souls to death, if not to perdition, and are devoid of modesty and the sense of shame. We cannot afford to let our women follow such as these or to adopt the cursed fashions they set.

I need not dwell on this matter, but will say that while crossing the street the other day, I saw a woman dressed to the height of this ridiculous fashion, and she was trotting along with little, short steps, she couldn't go any other way, hurrying across the street to catch the car. She got hold of the rail of the car and tried to lift herself up, but her foot would not go up to the step. By this time there was a crowd of men looking on. All of a sudden she stooped down, caught the bottom of her dress and raised it high enough to climb up. What an exhibition that was to the public eye! Would you like your daughters to expose themselves in such a manner ? To do so they must of necessity part with their sense of womanly modesty, if not with all other womanly virtues. God have mercy on our girls, and help them to dress decently!

I suppose I shall incur the censure and displeasure of many in saying these things, but I do not care what the world has to say, what men say, nor what women say, in relation to these things. In my sight the present day fashions are abominable, suggestive of evil, calculated to arouse base passion and lust, and to engender lasciviousness, in the hearts of those who follow the fashions, and of those who tolerate them. Why? Because women are imitating the very customs of a class of
women who have resorted to that means to aid them to sell their souls. It is infamous, and I hope the daughters of Zion will not descend to these pernicious ways, customs and fashions, for they are demoralizing and damnable in their effect.


and

Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1914, p.130

One word more. I wish to say to my sisters, and especially to those who are called to be teachers among their sex: Please set the example before your sisters that God would have them follow. When we teach people to observe the laws of God and to honor the gifts that are bestowed upon them in the covenants of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we don't want you teachers to go out and set an example before your sisters that will destroy their faith in our teachings. I hope you will take that to heart, for it has a meaning to it. I am talking to the teachers among the sisters.

...We see some of our good sisters coming here to the Temple occasionally decorated in the latest and most ridiculous fashions that ever disgraced the human form divine. They do not seem to realize that they are coming to the house of God, and we have to forbid them entrance, or find fault with them, and they go away grieved and say sometimes, we don't want to go there any more." Why? Because they come unprepared, like the man who was found at the feast without the wedding garment, who also had to be turned out (Matthew 22:1-14). We have to turn them out occasionally, because they will not hearken to the counsel that has been given to them.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_zeezrom
_Emeritus
Posts: 11938
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:57 pm

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _zeezrom »

In case anyone is wondering what Joseph was talking about regarding the woman who could not get up the steps, I will provide my guess.

Let us thank Joseph F's nemesis, the Parisian Paul Poiret for the hobble skirt!

Image
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _Morley »

zeezrom wrote:Thank you Morley!


You're welcome. Anything to keep you posting, my friend.
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I wonder why the evils of card playing are no longer preached?

It appears to me a very simple matter to meet such arguments. It is just as sinful in the sight of the Lord to do an evil secretly or in the home, as it is to do one publicly, and it has practically the same effect upon the person who does the evil act,
although the evil results may not be so far-reaching as if done in public. No person can play cards, or smoke, or drink, or do any other forbidden thing, in his home, by himself or among his personal friends, without being guilty of wrong doing just as much as if he did all these things in public


Jospeh F. Smith Improvement Era Vol 16 No. 5
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_zeezrom
_Emeritus
Posts: 11938
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:57 pm

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _zeezrom »

Perhaps card playing usually involved gambling back then?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _Fence Sitter »

zeezrom wrote:Perhaps card playing usually involved gambling back then?


The quote is in response to a question submitted to the first presidency back then in which it is specifically stated the people are not gambling, rather they were gathering together for something like bridge or hearts. So, at least in this case, gambling was not the only reason card playing was frowned upon. I just found it interesting it was placed in the same category as smoking, drinking and "forbidden things'. I guess forbidden things also included immodest attire like showing off ankles.

My father, back in the 70's when he was in the stake presidency, was reprimanded by a general authority he was picking up at the airport because my father had a mustache. Evidently that was not appropriate for a member of a stake presidency.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Need help with a citation found in the BYU Corpus

Post by _moksha »

zeezrom wrote:In case anyone is wondering what Joseph was talking about regarding the woman who could not get up the steps, I will provide my guess.

Let us thank Joseph F's nemesis, the Parisian Paul Poiret for the hobble skirt!

Image


Rather disappointing that some insights are only a fashion season deep. Still, it was an example of doom and gloom and need for wise counsel. This is why Mormons never proceeded into the Roaring Twenties.

Image
Modern LDS Young Women
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Post Reply