Best Comment on the MDD Dehlin Thread

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_Kishkumen
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Best Comment on the MDD Dehlin Thread

Post by _Kishkumen »

caudicus said:

caudicus wrote:Ultimately, the problem here is why this board had to be changed from what it was. People are leaving the church because they come here, become informed on some issues, and the seething underbelly of apologetics lays bare, for them, how ridiculous a lot of you participants can be. The board then changed, people were purged, and the image and tone are being controlled so that civil discussion can be attempted.

It is a failure, though. It isn't because LDS issues are hard to understand or because the apologetic arguments are stupid. A lot of the work done is very, very good. Everyone who has been here over the years has learned a great deal. The well is poisoned, though, because there are people who are still running around acting like children.who invalidate every decent argument ever made for the Mormon church.

I want all of you to think about this really hard. Every time you insult someone on this board, you are pushing away at least one person from the church. Probably more. Every time you get off point of civil discussion, you are hurting your cause, no matter which side you are on.

If you want this community to continue to be useful, you have to take it upon yourselves to conduct yourselves like civilized people in civilized society. Whether you like it or not, whatever knowledge you have to share will be ignored or attacked if you continue to be jerks.

The sad part is, that even the moderators can often be found playing in the mud. If you want this place to be different than the Great and Spacious Trailer Park, then don't act like them.

tl;dr Stop being jerks. It hurts you, it hurts this community and it ruins and invalidates the hard work and contributions of people who are sincere and know how to act like adults. Do what Jesus would do and transcend the negativity. Otherwise, you are all wasting your time. This goes for hit pieces, ad hominem attacks and useless sarcasm.
Last edited by Guest on Fri May 11, 2012 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_EAllusion
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehin Thread

Post by _EAllusion »

The way this board is trashed and held up as the dregs of impolite interaction in that post isn't based in reality. It's also mean. After all, Kish, you are the "them" the poster is referring to.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehin Thread

Post by _Kishkumen »

EAllusion wrote:The way this board is trashed and held up as the dregs of impolite interaction in that post isn't based in reality. It's also mean. After all, Kish, you are the "them" the poster is referring to.


I guess I don't take it that way. In other words, I understand that when someone wants to persuade, one tries to reach them where they are at. If that means shaming them by using their dislike of us, I am fine with it. It is not like I take it personally.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_EAllusion
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehin Thread

Post by _EAllusion »

Kishkumen wrote:
I guess I don't take it that way.

After calling people to be civil and less immature in their posting he contrasts that against this board which is held up as an awful standard he knows his audience believes is to be avoided.

How do you interpret, "The sad part is, that even the moderators can often be found playing in the mud. If you want this place to be different than the Great and Spacious Trailer Park, then don't act like them."

?

I don't see how you interpret it any other way. It was a nice touch to refer to this board as a "trailer park" and passive aggressively insult its participants in a call to be civil.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehin Thread

Post by _Kishkumen »

EAllusion wrote:I don't see how you interpret it any other way. It was a nice touch to refer to this board as a "trailer park" and passive aggressively insult its participants in a call to be civil.


I mean this: I choose not to be upset about that detail. I am willing to overlook it. Hey, at least the person recognizes that there is something wrong with how some of their posters behave. I see that as worth something significant.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Blixa
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehin Thread

Post by _Blixa »

Kishkumen wrote:

caudicus wrote:Ultimately, the problem here is why this board had to be changed from what it was. People are leaving the church because they come here, become informed on some issues, and the seething underbelly of apologetics lays bare, for them, how ridiculous a lot of you participants can be. The board then changed, people were purged, and the image and tone are being controlled so that civil discussion can be attempted.

It is a failure, though. It isn't because LDS issues are hard to understand or because the apologetic arguments are stupid. A lot of the work done is very, very good. Everyone who has been here over the years has learned a great deal. The well is poisoned, though, because there are people who are still running around acting like children.who invalidate every decent argument ever made for the Mormon church.

I want all of you to think about this really hard. Every time you insult someone on this board, you are pushing away at least one person from the church. Probably more. Every time you get off point of civil discussion, you are hurting your cause, no matter which side you are on.

If you want this community to continue to be useful, you have to take it upon yourselves to conduct yourselves like civilized people in civilized society. Whether you like it or not, whatever knowledge you have to share will be ignored or attacked if you continue to be jerks.

The sad part is, that even the moderators can often be found playing in the mud. If you want this place to be different than the Great and Spacious Trailer Park, then don't act like them.

tl;dr Stop being jerks. It hurts you, it hurts this community and it ruins and invalidates the hard work and contributions of people who are sincere and know how to act like adults. Do what Jesus would do and transcend the negativity. Otherwise, you are all wasting your time. This goes for hit pieces, ad hominem attacks and useless sarcasm.


Well said, and should be required reading for the holy warriors and tribe defenders who post here, several of whom have even been considered beyond the pale for MDD (which is really saying something).

And that fact should be considered in any condemnation of the so-called "trailer park." EAllusion has a good point; characterizing the "trailer part" as the apex of incivility only perpetuates the kind of distorted "us vs. them" binary on which junk apologetics is founded. The worst filth and smears are routinely generated by a small group of nutters who either openly proclaim that they post here to stir the pot, project their own mental problems onto others, or merely wall paper the Off Topic forum with links to political garbage.

That is not at all characteristic of every poster here and a real insult to those who call out the morally vapid and intellectually opportunistic work of junk apologetics in solidarity with the many sincerely believing and decent members of the church and the best in Mormon culture and history. They deserve better. Much, much better.

The only way a consistently serious level of discussion can take place here is if people avoid the kind of tit-for-tat these trolls and provocateurs traffic in. Of course that would be helped by a proactive stand by the board's administrator: coddling trolls is not commensurate with free speech. A board which is conceived of as "all things to all people" pretty easily can become nothing to anyone.
Last edited by Ahoody on Fri May 11, 2012 10:57 pm, edited 6 times in total.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Kishkumen
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehlin Thread

Post by _Kishkumen »

I like this one too:

mercyngrace wrote:I agree that the Lord uttered very harsh rebukes when necessary however let's look at the target of those words. He never decried others as heretics. He treated those outside the tribe with dignity and compassion. He ate with publicans and sinners, touched lepers and harlots, and wept over the dead. The most oft adjective or description attributed to the Lord in the Gospels is compassion, a sentiment we see pour forth in rich abundance again in the rubble of Bountiful.

The Savior's rebukes were for those who ought to have known better, those who had covenanted to live by a law which He explicitly summarized as love God and love your neighbor as yourself. He condemned spiritual and ecclesiastical leaders who held others to a standard that they, themselves, did not keep. This is why the word He chose was hypocrite. This standard was again explicitly referred to in parables where rich men refused to care for beggars (a spiritual metaphor if ever there were), in accounts where sinful men were inclined to judge with stones, and in measured words about devouring widow's houses and denying the right of non-members to approach God. These are just a few examples but His condemnation, when expressed, was uniformly aimed in the direction of those who acted as if they spoke for God while pushing others out of the kingdom with unrighteous judgments and unnecessary burdens.

To imply that verbal bombs lobbed on this board are even remotely similar to His knowledgeable, inspired, and measured rebukes is, in my opinion, folly.

The warring rhetoric used by some members who, as acknowledged earlier in the thread, relish contention (causing distress, seeking a reaction through offense) for its sake alone reminds me of the words of a favorite author:

"They'll say about people like me 'Ah Pete's just a Cappuccino drinking, polo knit wearing kind of guy, the only sin is using the wrong dessert spoon over dinner. We're in the real tough fight, let's be militant.' You know what my response is? You're not too violent. You're not violent enough. Your violence is like the man who beats up his wife. It's an impotent violence. It's a violence against flesh and blood. The violence of Christianity is a violence against principalities and powers. Christianity is fundamentally violent. Look at Mother Teresa. Her pacifism is violent because it completely ruptured the caste system that she was working within. The whole system of power that placed people in different castes, she came in a she looked after everybody equally and she ruptured the system. You look at Gandhi who, in his pacifism, ruptured the system of colonialism. You look at Martin Luther King. In his pacifism, he ruptured and traumatized and broke the system of racism that was not so much what you saw but the lens through which you saw everything. That's what a system is, a system or an ideology is not that which you see but that which you see through. Each of these people were truly doing something powerful. So all of this posturing which just ends up being violence against people and violent against individuals but not challenging systems... it's just not violent enough."

It's easy to attack individuals. It's easy to call names, make inferences, but those acts are impotent. Don't misunderstand, I do feel strongly that there is a war to be waged, it's a war against the contentious, divisive, misery loving and unseen system that comes so easily to the natural man.

On this board alone I've been pejoratively named a "wide eyed ingenue" and a "progressive", and my loyalty to the church has been called into question. Hardly violent in the defense of their faith, these impotent shadow boxers don't even bruise.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Blixa
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehlin Thread

Post by _Blixa »

mercyngrace continually impresses.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Kishkumen
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehin Thread

Post by _Kishkumen »

Blixa wrote:And that fact should be considered in any condemnation of the so-called "trailer park." EAllusion has a good point; characterizing the "trailer part" as the apex of incivility only perpetuates the kind of distorted "us vs. them" binary on which junk apologetics is founded. The worst filth and smears are routinely generated by a small group of nutters who either openly proclaim that they post here to stir the pot, project their own mental problems onto others, or merely wall paper the Off Topic forum with links to political garbage.

That is not at all characteristic of every poster here and a real insult to those who call out the morally vapid and intellectually opportunistic work of junk apologetics in solidarity with the many sincerely believing and decent members of the church and the best in Mormon culture and history. They deserve better. Much, much better.


I couldn't agree more. I do believe they deserve much, much better. As much as I don't want to perpetuate conflict, I can't bring myself to feel otherwise.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_harmony
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Re: Best Comment on the MDD Dehlin Thread

Post by _harmony »

Blixa wrote:mercyngrace continually impresses.


Amen.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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