Tobin wrote:Of course I'm stating that early Mormons were misinformed and I'm stating that you are misinformed. I am also saying that Mormon apologists/archeologists that propose these "geographies" are misguided and should focus on three things instead: 1) Horse bone remains. 2) Iron weapon remains. 3) Examples of reformed egyptian, which would be characteristically different from Mayan. Without evidence of these major items, the position that any of the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica is completely untenable.
Gee Tobin, you're in a bit of a pickle. Despite extensive archaeological research no horse bones, iron, steel or any relationship between Mayan glyphs and 'Reformed Egyptian' (if there is such a thing) have ever been found in Central America.
No evidence of great battles, steel, iron or advanced civilizations have ever been found in upstate New York.
Just where do you suppose the 'real' Cumorah was?
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Quasimodo wrote:Just where do you suppose the 'real' Cumorah was?
As I've said, I don't know. I certainly haven't seen any compelling evidence at all that it was in New York. As has been pointed out, there is just a whole host of problems with a New York Hill Cumorah.
The other location of main focus for Mormon apologists is Central America. But the title of this thread speaks volumes. Why are the proposing "Book of Mormon geography" without establishing where the Book of Mormon civilizations were in the first place? As I've said, I don't believe in an iron age or mass domestication of horses. However, they are landmarks you need to establish a geography. The Jaredites most definitely had iron weapons. Where were they? The Nephites saw horses. We need examples of those so we know we are looking in the right general part of America. And we need independent examples of reformed Egyptian so we know if we have found the lost Nephite civilization. I would think you'd want all those things before proposing any geography.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: The other location of main focus for Mormon apologists is Central America. But the title of this thread speaks volumes. Why are the proposing "Book of Mormon geography" without establishing where the Book of Mormon civilizations were in the first place? As I've said, I don't believe in an iron age or mass domestication of horses. However, they are landmarks you need to establish a geography. The Jaredites most definitely had iron weapons. Where were they? The Nephites saw horses. We need examples of those so we know we are looking in the right general part of America. And we need independent examples of reformed Egyptian so we know if we have found the lost Nephite civilization. I would think you'd want all those things before proposing any geography.
A logical appraisal, Tobin. Given that, don't you think that it might be time to consider that the Book of Mormon might not be factual? No evidence of any of it, anywhere.
Maybe God was pulling your leg.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Tobin wrote: The other location of main focus for Mormon apologists is Central America. But the title of this thread speaks volumes. Why are the proposing "Book of Mormon geography" without establishing where the Book of Mormon civilizations were in the first place? As I've said, I don't believe in an iron age or mass domestication of horses. However, they are landmarks you need to establish a geography. The Jaredites most definitely had iron weapons. Where were they? The Nephites saw horses. We need examples of those so we know we are looking in the right general part of America. And we need independent examples of reformed Egyptian so we know if we have found the lost Nephite civilization. I would think you'd want all those things before proposing any geography.
A logical appraisal, Tobin. Given that, don't you think that it might be time to consider that the Book of Mormon might not be factual? No evidence of any of it, anywhere.
Maybe God was pulling your leg.
But Tobin has more to say than what is in his latest post. Remember:
I believe definitive examples will be found eventually and when they are that will dramatically change our view of the Americas since so much has been made out of the lack of examples so far.
I bet God gave him a heads-up on that. In the end, we shall all feel very foolish and see that he was right.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote: I bet God gave him a heads-up on that. In the end, we shall all feel very foolish and see that he was right.
No doubt. Any day now some scruffy archeoligist will find a horse skeleton still attached to it's chariot with associated steel swords and we will all have to eat crow and seek a temple recommend. I think I'll start looking for garment retailers this afternoon.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
beastie wrote:Do you intend to ignore my challenge, Tobin?
Yes, I do intend to ignore your challenge. I don't claim to be an expert in this field nor do I pretend to have a degree in it. Believe it or not, I do have other interests and a career in another field. So - most of the information I have gathered came from books I read about it over a decade ago when I was contemplating leaving Mormonism. And I have tried to stay up on what is developing in this field through various articles have been published and documentaries.
Does that disqualify me from making reasonable assertions and observations about Book of Mormon geography? I don't think so. As I've said, I don't see much point to it and have yet to see anything presented here that demonstrates it is valid. Does that disqualify me from asking questions and not believing baseless assertions and generalizations? No. This is a discussion forum on Mormonism and I have an interest in the topic. If people, who are experts, want to present compelling information on this topic, I'm more than happy to look at and consider it.
It disqualifies you from asserting that the lack of extensive ancient writings means that we really don't know much about Mesoamerica.
It also disqualifies you from deciding, with any validity, which assertions and generalizations are "baseless."
I'm not an expert, either, but I spent a lot of time reading about Mesoamerica and writing on the topic. Feel free to visit my website (link below).
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Tobin wrote: Now a couple of points. 1) Why were these populations deemed representative of all ancient American populations? 2) Why weren't other populations in America that carry the X2 also tested? I would point to that as a clear sign of bias in the study.
...
It Is Because MesoAmerica is the Area where most of the LDS Apologists state where the Book of Mormon took Place. Out of the 1,164 Native Mesoamericans that have been DNA tested, at least 99% of them belong to Haplogroups A, B, C, or D. Not any of these Native Mesoamericans tested belonged to Haplogroup X.
At least 15,000 Native Americans have been DNA tested to date. However, most of the LDS Apologists do Not state that the Book of Mormon took Place in any other Area on the Great Continents of North and South American.
Last edited by MSNbot Media on Wed May 16, 2012 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
