Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

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_lulu
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _lulu »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:"I would like to stand up and bear my testimony that I know, with every fiber of my being, that Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon, that he founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and that president Monson truly stands at the head of this Church today," etc.

I always wondered what kind of response that "testimony" would get.

lol. nice.
Someone suggested (I don't remember who, but the idea is not original with me, so I don't want to imply that it was), that the purpose of the 3 and then the 8 witnesses were to keep Joseph Smith from being hauled into court again on glass looking charges as it could be easily anticipated that he would soon become much more well known upon publication of the Book of Mormon.

Mary Whitmer, although she claimed to see the plates, was not included as a witness in the publication, as a woman, she would not have been allowed to testify in court during that period.

Just because 11 people (who would be qualified to testify in court) say that they saw me wipe my finger prints off of the gun doesn't mean that I shot him. But why was I wiping my finger prints off?

Sometimes when you return to the scene of the crime to tidy up, you just end up incriminating yourself.

Are the witnesses evidence of the plates or of fraud? Why didn't he just show them to everyone?
Last edited by Guest on Thu May 17, 2012 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _Kishkumen »

lulu wrote:Someone suggested (I don't remember who, but the idea is not original with me, so I don't want to imply that it was), that the purpose of the 3 and then the 8 witnesses were to keep Joseph Smith from being hauled into court again on glass looking charges as it could be easily anticipated that he would soon become much more well known upon publication of the Book of Mormon.

Mary Whitmer, although she claimed to see the plates, was not included as a witness in the publication, as a woman, she would not have been allowed to testify in court during that period.


Very interesting, lulu. It is certainly worth exploring.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I admired your posts, when, I believe, you were well aware of the problems. It wasn't just the Book of Abraham that sent you spiraling. You made some very good arguments as to why one should still remain a faithful Mormon, in spite of the difficulties, problems and challenges. I wish I had access to those posts now. They are gone, but still embedded in my memory, because you were prodding me to think much more about my own opposition.

Then all of a sudden, I see this aggressive Kevin Graham.

Nothing you ever did as a critic, ever inspired me as much as what you did as an apologist.


Ray, there were some arguments I made during the waning phases of my faith that were designed to justify belief despite the evidence. That you were inspired by them only indicates your desire to maintain belief despite the evidence as well. For example I forwarded an argument that the Book of Mormon could be fiction, and still be "true." Others appreciated my position and I was even asked to publish on this theory. But the way I was treated by Bill Hamblin on that issue, for example, made it clear to me that this was not a position that would ever be acceptable. There was simply no room for such neo-orthodoxy in the Church.

I look at so many members who engage in the same kind of mental gymnastics just to maintain status in the Church. Just to give you an example I just returned from Utah after attending my niece's wedding reception. She was sealed in the SLC temple. Her parents have been members all their lives and they've been living in Utah for more than twenty years after moving from Brazil. While staying at their home, I realized the father, who is "temple worthy," drinks decaffeinated coffee and puts alcohol in the food he cooks.

He rationalizes that the cooking kills the alcohol and that the reason coffee is forbidden in the Church is due to the caffeine. When I, the lowly apostate, tried to explain to him that caffeine has absolutely nothing to do with the word of wisdom, he flipped out on me. He kept saying "for me it is the caffeine." To which I would respond, but "for the Church it is the coffee." He then said "you're like so many members of the Church who take little things and twist them with to be like they want." He was obviously projecting since that is precisely what he was doing.

I dropped the matter after a few minutes because he was becoming enraged and I was supposed to be celebrating my 10th anniversary. The reason he was acting that way was obvious. He didn't want to come to gripes with the fact that he was deceiving himself and the Church for so many years. What I was telling him pissed him off. I wasn't "inspiring" him, even though what I said was 100% accurate.

So you see, it doesn't matter if you feel inspired by what I said because your feelings are driven by your own predetermined desires of what you want to be true. So when I was an apologist trying to justify belief in a false belief system, you liked that because you too were trying to justify your own belief and participation in Mormonism.

But the fact is I was kidding myself the whole time just like others like Darth J. I stopped trying to juggle so many untenable apologetic arguments and gave in to my God-given ability to reason. I don't know why this is hard for you to understand. The fact that you don't like where my path of following the evidence has taken me, is irrelevant. It doesn't make me a bigot just because it pisses you off. Calling me names and bringing up stuff from years ago only reflects poorly on you. I am a much, much better person than I was ten years ago when I was spitting fire trying to justify intellectual belief in Mormonism.

I had two wonderful conversations with Brian Hauglid and David Bokovoy last week and they both understood this perfectly well. They aren't inclined to hold apostasy against the person, unlike people such as you and Dan Peterson, because they understand our position that, if we are wrong, then we have no one else to blame but God since he is the one who gave us a brain and the capacity to reason. They do not fault us for that and you shouldn't either.

If you want to belief Mormonism is in some way "true," then I have absolutely no problem with that. As I told these guys last week, the Church does a wonderful service for some people. But it is also responsible for screwing up others. If people find happiness in the Church, then as far as I am concerned, more power to them. How does that make me a bigot?

As I explained to them, what I feel obligated to do is make sure people who are tinkering with the idea of converting to Mormonism, have a better understanding of what it is they're getting into. As an educator by trade I feel obligated to see that people make informed decisions with their eyes wide open. People like Dan Peterson hide truths from people because he wants them to reach a certain conclusion. That's not me.

People born and raised in the Church, they are the responsibility of their parents. I don't go out and try to convert Mormon kids. Even when they come at be with full force and try to reconvert me back to Mormonism, I never bring up the troubling issues of the Church because I don't want to be responsible for any loss of faith they encounter. Going through that process can be devastating to folks raised in the Church. My wife's brother from Brazil is a bishop, and she kept trying to get me to debate him on things like the Book of Abraham. I refused. This guy clearly knows nothing about even the basics, and I didn't want to make him feel stupid in front of the family. They already worship this guy just because he is a bishop and he is eating up that role while they treat him as if he is so much more "spiritual" than the rest of us. He is always asked to do the prayer, to answer gospel related questions, etc. But I know that there is nothing I could say to him that would make a difference because the Church has become such a huge part of his life and identity. It defines who he is, his purpose in life, etc. Whether it is based on actual truth claims becomes largely beside the point for people like him. They don't want to know the truth just like my wife's uncle didn't want to know the truth about the Word of Wisdom.

At any rate, I hope one day you'll consider the possibility that I'm not quite the monster you and Dan Peterson have constructed from exaggerated or even false inferences. Just because I do not make you feel warm inside when I post my arguments, shouldn't mean I'm a bigot.
_stemelbow
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _stemelbow »

lulu wrote:What is the weight to be given that piece of data?


In regards to what question?
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_lulu
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _lulu »

stemelbow wrote:And why do not need convincing? Tell the truth? Is it because the evidence points you to think that he really did have plates? Without the testimony of the 8 one might still conclude he had some plates, right? But with it, the evidence mounts that much more.
stemelbow wrote:It's one claim at a time. Did he have plates that appeared ancient and had writing on them? Even you, an avowed critic have said yes to that. I say you say yes because the evidence suggests he did, as he claimed. Thus, one claim is considered true, as you say, by all serious people looking into it. And why is it considered true? Because the evidence is too strong for you, an avowed critic, to dispute it.
stemelbow wrote:The testimony of the 8 is in itself a piece of data. This piece of data on its own does not in anyway suggest there was fraud. It does suggest that were plates.
stemelbow wrote:
lulu wrote:What is the weight to be given that piece of data?
In regards to what question?
The ones you are raising?
Last edited by Guest on Fri May 18, 2012 12:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _Kishkumen »

Sophocles wrote:Hilarious!

"And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of Joseph Smith, this is the testimony, last of all, which I give of him: That he lived!

For my ancestors saw him, even on the left hand of Sidney Rigdon..."


Well done!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_RayAgostini

Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _RayAgostini »

Kevin Graham wrote:I had two wonderful conversations with Brian Hauglid and David Bokovoy last week and they both understood this perfectly well. They aren't inclined to hold apostasy against the person, unlike people such as you and Dan Peterson, because they understand our position that, if we are wrong, then we have no one else to blame but God since he is the one who gave us a brain and the capacity to reason. They do not fault us for that and you shouldn't either.


I suppose I'm a lot like that Peterson bloke you speak of. After all, he convinced me to rejoin the Church, almost single-handedly, even though it didn't last very long. I don't think anything or anyone else could have even come close to drawing me back at the time.

I must make a clarification, though. I don't hold apostasy against anyone. After all, I'm an apostate myself, even if I'm not convinced that Mormonism is a "fraud". Are you?

I stand by my view that you were a better person as an active believer, and that's the Kevin Graham I like to remember. Now you're just an arrogant and contentious old fart. :wink:
_RayAgostini

Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _RayAgostini »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Why am I getting dragged into this discussion? What is your main point, exactly, Ray? As I understand it, your present sympathy from Mormonism is based on two personal things: (1) because a critic insulted one of your kids, and (2) because you felt "moved" by DCP's interview on (of all things) "Mormon Stories."

Is there more to it than that? I don't really know what you're arguing here, exactly.


Tell me your real name, and I'll take you seriously.

My "sympathy" with Mormonism has nothing to do with the two points you raise. The DCP interview was great, but that's not why, even in part, why I remain "sympathetic". And to be "sympathetic" to Mormonism because one of my kids was attacked is essentially a "revenge motive". I have no "revenge motives" for remaining "sympathetic".
_Gadianton
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _Gadianton »

http://www.wave.net/upg/gate/

The leader of Heaven's Gate had a photo of Hale Bopp with a trailing white dot. The trailing dot was the spaceship of one of the Heaven's Gate leaders from several years prior who had moved to the next level after fighting cancer. Now, Stem, one might conclude without that photo that Hale Bopp approached not alone, but with that photo, the evidence mounts that much more. That photo was/is a piece of data. It is evidence positive for the case that Hale Bopp traveled with an intelligent, space-faring companion. It isn't proof necessarily, but it is a piece of evidence in favor of the Heaven's Gate case and should be acknowledged as such.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Darth J wrote:EDIT: And I'm sure our soldiers on this board, like MrStakhanovite, Sethbag, and honorentheos, can all confirm that parades and ceremonies are meant as an exercise in infantry tactics.


Image

Oh come on! Roger's Rangers from the French and Indian war?!?!? Come on Dan....
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