Helping Wade Englund's Belief

[_Shulem]

So wade came over here to help Kevin Graham acquire faith in Mormonism?

He is either a sadist, a jackass, or an idiot.

Or,

He's gay and needs a good kiss.



Paul O

[_Gadianton]

So wade came over here to help Kevin Graham acquire faith in Mormonism?

By teaching Kevin humility! That's what he said, is that he would start by "humbling" Kevin.

[_Kishkumen]

So wade came over here to help Kevin Graham acquire faith in Mormonism?

By teaching Kevin humility! That's what he said, is that he would start by "humbling" Kevin.

I guess it is possible to be a sadist, a jackass, and an idiot all at once.

[_Darth J]

As we move on with this thread, I would like to remind everyone that my intent to help Wade Englund is sincere. He obviously has both access to this board and the ability to post on it. I'm sure at some point Wade will humble himself enough to engage in a discussions of his belief in the LDS Church that is consistent with his self-described "thriving reasoned-based world-view." In the meantime, I certainly hope that nobody visiting this thread will mistake Wade's silence as a tacit admission that he is a passive-aggressive coward who cannot allow himself to consider the proposition that even under its own terms, the LDS Church is not true.

And by the way, Dean Robbers, please re-load your avatar. I miss your participation being accompanied by the eminent visage of Bertrand Russell.

Moving on......

The 13th Article of Faith of states that we believe in being honest. The LDS Church also tells us that honesty is a requirement for having the companionship of the Holy Ghost:

Gospel Topics: Honesty

When we are honest in every way, we are able to enjoy peace of mind and maintain self-respect. We build strength of character, which allows us to be of service to God and others. We are trustworthy in the eyes of God and those around us.

On the other hand, if we are dishonest in our words or actions, we hurt ourselves and often hurt others as well. If we lie, steal, cheat, or neglect to give the full amount of work for our pay, we lose our self-respect. We lose the guidance of the Holy Ghost. We may find that we have damaged relationships with family members and friends and that people no longer trust us.

The Church also teaches that total honesty in our words and actions is required for us to be with God:

"Chapter 31: Honesty," Gospel Principles, (2009)

Complete honesty is necessary for our salvation. President Brigham Young said, “If we accept salvation on the terms it is offered to us, we have got to be honest in every thought, in our reflections, in our meditations, in our private circles, in our deals, in our declarations, and in every act of our lives” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 293).

Chapter 31 of Gospel Principles goes on to explain that there are many ways to lie. My underline has been added:

There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

As I have previously indicated, we are taught in the scriptures that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all things be established. Here then are three examples of the LDS Church lying about itself.

In the first example, the LDS Church tries to give outsiders the false impression that it does not teach that men can become gods, and more particularly that faithful members are taught that as gods, they will rule over their own planets.

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

The statement above is a lie. This idea is a doctrine of the Church. E.g.:

Henry B. Eyring, October 2002 Ensign

Our conviction is that God, our Heavenly Father, wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things “so we may one day create worlds [and] people and govern them” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual: Section 138 - Vision of the Redemption of the Dead

D&C 138:12–17. Will Many People Be Saved in the Celestial Kingdom?
.........
President Spencer W. Kimball said in a general priesthood meeting:

“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.

“Just think of the possibilities, the potential. Every little boy that has just been born becomes an heir to this glorious, glorious program. When he is grown, he meets a lovely woman; they are married in the holy temple. They live all the commandments of the Lord. They keep themselves clean. And then they become sons of God, and they go forward with their great program—they go beyond the angels, beyond the angels and the gods that are waiting there. They go to their exaltation.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1975, p. 120; or Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 80 ; see also Alma 13:10–12 .)

“Chapter 36: Eternal Life,” Gospel Fundamentals

To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation* or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done.

Presidents of the Church Student Manual - Religion 345
Chapter 5 - Lorenzo Snow - Fifth President of the Church

They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: ‘Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?’ Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. ‘That is very interesting,’ the President said. ‘I want to watch them.’ He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said:

“‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods’” (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59).

“Chapter 4: Teaching Children: from Four to Eleven Years,” A Parent’s Guide

Teach Children to Accept and Understand Their Gender Roles
.........
“Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people. You are sent to this earth not merely to have a good time or to satisfy urges or passions or desires. You are sent to this earth, not to ride merry-go-rounds, airplanes, automobiles, and have what the world calls ‘fun.’

“You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], p. 31).

In February 2012, the Church also lied about the basis for prohibiting Negroes from holding the priesthood (or, more specifically, being led to believe that the priesthood exists and they could hold it).

Church Statement Regarding 'Washington Post' Article on Race and the Church

For a time in the Church there was a restriction on the priesthood for male members of African descent. It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church but what is clear is that it ended decades ago. Some have attempted to explain the reason for this restriction but these attempts should be viewed as speculation and opinion, not doctrine. The Church is not bound by speculation or opinions given with limited understanding.

As we learn in Gospel Principles, when we only tell part of the truth, or when we lead people to believe something that is not true, we are lying. The above statement is a lie. During the time the priesthood ban was in effect, the First Presidency made clear in an official statement that we do know why there was a priesthood ban: because it was by commandment of God. The First Presidency also made it clear that such was not speculation or opinion, but based on revelation. In an official statement dated August 17, 1949, the First Presidency said the following:

The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to."

In our third example for this post, the LDS Church has asserted that overwhelming evidence that Native Americans descended from Asiatic emigrants tens of thousands of years ago does not foreclose the possibility that the Book of Mormon is real history:

DNA and the Book of Mormon

Recent attacks on the veracity of the Book of Mormon based on DNA evidence are ill considered. Nothing in the Book of Mormon precludes migration into the Americas by peoples of Asiatic origin.

This, too, is a lie. The Book of Mormon posits that the entire Earth, including the Americas, were covered by water at the time of Noah's flood.

Ether 13:2---For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this bland it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;

3 Nephi 22:9 (this is the resurrected Jesus speaking)---For this, the waters of Noah unto me, for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee.

Alma 10:22---Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword.

In addition, the LDS Church teaches that other scriptures and "modern revelation" confirm that the world was turned into an ocean at the time of Noah's flood. E.g., "The Flood and the Tower of Babel," January 1998 Ensign.

The prehistoric, Asiatic population of the Americas could not possibly have survived the global flood. That means there would not have been any natives for the Lamanites to interbreed with in the Americas if the Book of Mormon is true and LDS doctrine about the flood is true. The scientific evidence and the Church's assertions about the history of the human race cannot both be true.

Because, according to its own standards, the Church lies by only telling part of the truth and leading people to believe things that are not true, by its own teachings the Church has forfeited the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Thus, if the Church's teachings are true, the Church itself is not true. But if the Church's teachings are not true, then a fortiori the Church is not true.

EDITS: I noticed some typos.

[_Darth J]

Wade, I notice that you continue to post in your call-out thread to Kevin Graham, yet you continue to avoid this one.

Smarter people than you or I, who have been as committed to science and rationality and non-contradiction, have been able to avoid a broad range of cognitive dissonance in healthy and edifying ways that not only allowed for the conclusion that the LDS Church is not true, but enhanced growth in the same.

In short, there are viable solutions to your perceived problem of trying to reconcile your cherished beliefs with objective reality---namely, the solution which recognizes that no man can serve two masters.

Thanks, -Darth J-

[_Darth J]

I am here simply to offer Wade help, if he wants it, in achieving his stated desire of adhering to a "thriving reasoned-based world-view.".

Thanks, -Darth J-

[_Darth J]

In another thread, Chap said this to Wade Englund: "I have seen other examples of your endlessly prolix posting style, a kind of agonizingly prolonged verbal strip-tease that never reveals anything significant - and what little is revealed markedly reduces one's interest in seeing more."

It's sort of a Zen question of what would happen if the Emperor who had no clothes performed a strip tease, but Brother Englund provides us a pretty good idea of what the answer is. Since Wade is still here on the board and posting, I will continue in my sincere effort to help Wade look at Mormonism through that "thriving reasoned-based world-view" that he says he wants to attain.

Carrying on with my fervent hope that Wade can humble himself to examine his cherished beliefs as anything other than a foregone conclusion, let's consider some events from earlier in Mormon history. I have posted this before, but nobody has come up with an answer. Surely an experienced internet apologist such as Wade, who has been doing his thing for the better part of a decade, can bring a "thriving reasoned-based world-view" to bear on this matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 132 gives specific parameters for when plural marriage is acceptable to the Lord:

*The consent of the previous wife must be sought
*The plural wives must be virgins
*The plural wives must be vowed to no one else
*A man's plural wives "are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth"

D&C 132:61-63

The Book of Mormon also specifies that the purpose of plural marriage is to raise up a seed to the Lord (i.e., have a lot of kids). Jacob 2:30

In practicing plural marriage, Joseph Smith:

*Frequently did not seek Emma's consent/hid his plural marriages from Emma
*On January 17, 1842, married Mary Elizabeth Rollins, who was several months pregnant (obviously not a virgin)
*Entered polyandrous marriages with the wives of other men
*Had no known children with his plural wives

Joseph Smith continuously violated the requirements for plural marriage that the Lord revealed in D&C 132. We also learn from the Doctrine and Covenants that the powers of the priesthood can only be exercised in righteousness.

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

D&C 121

Wade Englund: how do you reconcile the claim that Joseph Smith continued to be a prophet until his death with his violating the commandments about plural marriage, which would have caused the Spirit of the Lord to withdraw from him and his priesthood authority to cease?

[_Bret Ripley]

Thanks, -Darth J-

At the risk of derailing this most excellent of threads, I sometimes wonder how -Wade Englund- pronounces the hyphens that embrace his name. I fancy it's a sort of Bushman "click".

Thanks, ~Bret Ripley~

[_Darth J]

The LDS Church likes to portray itself as following the teachings of Jesus Christ. In the Book of Mormon, for example, Jesus is supposed to have repeated the Sermon on the Mount to the Nephites, including this part:

3 Nephi 13

1 Verily, verily, I say that I would that ye should do alms unto the poor; but take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them; otherwise ye have no reward of your Father who is in heaven.

2 Therefore, when ye shall do your alms do not sound a trumpet before you, as will hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth;

4 That thine alms may be in secret; and thy Father who seeth in secret, himself shall reward thee openly.

In the Church's April 1983 General Conference, Thomas S. Monson discussed the importance of this teaching by the Master:

Recently, I approached the reception desk of a large hospital to learn the room number of a patient I had come to visit. This hospital, like almost every other in the land, was undergoing a massive expansion. Behind the desk where the receptionist sat was a magnificent plaque which bore an inscription of thanks to donors who had made possible the expansion. The name of each donor who had contributed $100,000 appeared in a flowing script, etched on an individual brass placard suspended from the main plaque by a glittering chain.

The names of the benefactors were well known. Captains of commerce, giants of industry, professors of learning—all were there. I felt gratitude for their charitable benevolence. Then my eyes rested on a brass placard which was different—it contained no name. One word, and one word only, was inscribed: “Anonymous.” I smiled and wondered who the unnamed contributor could have been. Surely he or she experienced a quiet joy unknown to any other.

My thoughts turned backward in time—back to the Holy Land; back to Him whom we especially remember this Easter Sunday; back to Him who redeemed from the grave all mankind; back to Him who on that special mountain taught His disciples the true spirit of giving when He counseled, “Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them. …

“But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.” (Matt. 6:1, 3.)
.........
May this truth guide our lives. May we look upward as we press forward in the service of our God and our fellowmen. And may we incline an ear toward Galilee, that we might hear perhaps an echo of the Savior’s teachings: “Do not your alms before men, to be seen of them.” (Matt. 6:1.) “Let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.” (Matt. 6:3.) And of our good deeds: “See thou tell no man.” (Matt. 8:4.) Our hearts will then be lighter, our lives brighter, and our souls richer.

Loving service anonymously given may be unknown to man—but the gift and the giver are known to God. Of this truth I testify, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Unfortunately, the Church does not really believe in what Jesus taught. The Church in fact has an official program in place wherein charitable service like that described by the Savior and then-apostle Thomas S. Monson is not anonymous concern for others, but a public relations gambit.

Mormon Helping Hands

Mormon Helping Hands is a priesthood-directed Church program for providing community service and disaster relief to those in need. This program which is operating successfully in Latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe, the Pacific, and the United States, can also assist priesthood leaders in establishing relationships with key opinion leaders.

Guidelines

Mormon Helping Hands Guidelines for Public Affairs Directors gives specific directions on how public affairs councils can utilize this important program and includes instructions for using the Mormon Helping Hands logo.

In the Church's public relations guide, we learn that one of the several purposes of Mormon Helping Hands is indeed to provide charitable service to others. However, contrary to the teachings of the Master and one of His special witnesses, anonymity is antithetical to the program. One might go so far as to say that the Church's purposes for this program are cynical.

Build Relationships with Opinion Leaders

Church Public Affairs exists to “build strategic relationships with opinion leaders who affect the
reputation of the Church of Jesus Christ.” Service is a powerful tool for influencing the beliefs and opinions
of prominent individuals. Mormon Helping Hands is especially effective in developing beneficial
relationships between Church leaders and government officials or other opinion leaders.

Enhance the Reputation of the Church

Mormon Helping Hands helps bring the Church out of obscurity and can greatly improve its reputation.
Local media interest in these projects helps spread the knowledge of the Church to many who would not
otherwise hear of it.

We are further told that Mormon Helping Hands projects should include the following steps:

• Produce the vests or T-shirts and any accompanying graphic materials, using guidelines provided on
pages 8 and 9. (This step may take some time to complete.)
• Train a local priesthood-approved spokesperson for media inquiries about the project and the Church.
• Carry out the project, being mindful of customs, policies, and desires of local officials.
• As appropriate, properly document the project through videography, still photography, and written
accounts.

That appears to be exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught the ancient Hebrews in Palestine and some undisclosed location in the Americas. It also appears to be exactly the opposite of the inspired counsel given at General Conference by one of His modern, living prophets, seers, and revelators.

Given it is Wade Englund's sincere desire to be guided in his life by a "thriving reasoned-based world-view," I am sure that he and other like-minded Latter-day Saints will agree with me that the Church is directly contradicting the teachings of Jesus Christ, which severely undermines its claim to be His restored church.

[_Shulem]

Mormon helping hands on t-shirts are to be seen of men -- free advertising -- literally worth millions of dollars everytime they are shown on the news. The church is shrewed and looking for ways to get the biggest bang for the buck. What better than putting members out in the trenches and dressing them in tacky t-shirts with the helping hands logo. It's all about advertising compliments of Gordon Ass Hinckley.

Did I ever tell everyone how glad I am now that Hinckley is dead? I'm glad he's dead. That sorry bastard.

Paul O