Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

[_stemelbow]

Hi there, Stemelbow. I see that you are off again on your red herring about personal attacks and people hating Mormons. Let's prove to everyone that you're not yet another Mormon internet warrior who defends the faith by being a passive-aggressive troll who mischaracterizes issues and misrepresents what people are saying. A good way to start would be if you stop avoiding the following:

1. Let's watch and see if stemelbow ever admits that the facts and circumstances of how the testimony of the Eight Witnesses was procured is evidence (but not proof!) that the Book of Mormon is a hoax---or if he continues to axiomatically insist no, if he can explain why not.

2. Stemelbow, from now on I want you to join with me and the rest of the board in referring to Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805-1844) as "Joseph Smith, the Child Molester." Joseph Smith has been called a child molester by some people because of his relationship with teenage girls such as Helen Mar Kimball.

We're not making any claims; we just want to identify who we're talking about. So from this point forward, for the simple purpose of identification, we're all going to refer to the founder of Mormonism as "Joseph Smith, the Child Molester."

Will you agree to this? If not, why not?

And by the way, Stemelbow, what happened to the "pep pep, nuthin' much" schtick? It's just so curious that you've abandoned it.

Hey DJ, You've already helped my case when you stated, "No, I don't dispute that the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses is evidence that Joseph Smith showed them a set of plates."

So Joseph Smith had desired, or God did, to have evidence that plates existed. His claim of having such plates, is supported by evidence. You an avowed critic agrees that he had plates. I suggest you aren't taking into account your own words in your previous explanation of relevance and foundation. The 8 Witnesses testifies of seeing the plates. They ddi not testify that Joseph Smith' translation was true or correct. Thus, we can be sure that the data here can be evidence of that which it claims to be--evidence that Joseph Smith had plates, ancient in appearance, and had writings on them.

[_stemelbow]

And by the way, Stemelbow, what happened to the "pep pep, nuthin' much" schtick? It's just so curious that you've abandoned it.

Folks here got all worked up because I substituted "pep pep" in place of lol. So I stopped. I decided to stop it so I won't see tons of replies complaining about me because I attempted a bit of a change. "nuttin'" is in my sig line. I ain't nuttin'. No particular schtick. I liketo play around a little with the way I type things out. I mean no offense, even if it gets you all worked up. It's called getting all worked up over nuttin'.

[_Chap]

And by the way, Stemelbow, what happened to the "pep pep, nuthin' much" schtick? It's just so curious that you've abandoned it.

Folks here got all worked up because I substituted "pep pep" in place of lol. So I stopped. I decided to stop it so I won't see tons of replies complaining about me because I attempted a bit of a change. "nuttin'" is in my sig line. I ain't nuttin'. No particular schtick. I liketo play around a little with the way I type things out. I mean no offense, even if it gets you all worked up. It's called getting all worked up over nuttin'.

No. It won't wash. You used to post in a way that consistently suggested that you were a rather naïve and unsophisticated guy who just couldn't see why those danged anti-Mormons were so weird - "what is it with you guys?". And your sentence construction was of the simplest kind.

Now in recent posts you show a normal college-level standard of English vocabulary, prose construction and general expression. You have stepped out of the stemelbow role, and it is really not convincing for you to try to re-assume it.

[_Yoda]

Are there any theories regarding what happened to the gold plates after Joseph's death?

Joseph, I believe, claimed that the Angel Moroni took them. Does anyone know off-hand when, exactly, this happened in the timeline of Joseph's life?

And, if the Moroni story is made up, what are the theories involving why he would want the plates to disappear? Was the "prop" just so poorly constructed that he didn't want anyone to really study it? Could it have been stolen?

I am just genuinely curious here...and too lazy to look things up. LOL

[_Yoda]

No. It won't wash. You used to post in a way that consistently suggested that you were a rather naïve and unsophisticated guy who just couldn't see why those danged anti-Mormons were so weird - "what is it with you guys?". And your sentence construction was of the simplest kind.

Now in recent posts you show a normal college-level standard of English vocabulary, prose construction and general expression. You have stepped out of the stemelbow role, and it is really not convincing for you to try to re-assume it.

Actually, I am enjoying the "new and improved" posting style of Stem. He is much easier to read.

[_Buffalo]

Are there any theories regarding what happened to the gold plates after Joseph's death?

Joseph, I believe, claimed that the Angel Moroni took them. Does anyone know off-hand when, exactly, this happened in the timeline of Joseph's life?

And, if the Moroni story is made up, what are the theories involving why he would want the plates to disappear? Was the "prop" just so poorly constructed that he didn't want anyone to really study it? Could it have been stolen?

I am just genuinely curious here...and too lazy to look things up. LOL

He might have melted them down. But maybe he buried them somewhere. I'd love to hear the apologetic scramble if someone were to dig up Joseph's prop someday.

[_Chap]

No. It won't wash. You used to post in a way that consistently suggested that you were a rather naïve and unsophisticated guy who just couldn't see why those danged anti-Mormons were so weird - "what is it with you guys?". And your sentence construction was of the simplest kind.

Now in recent posts you show a normal college-level standard of English vocabulary, prose construction and general expression. You have stepped out of the stemelbow role, and it is really not convincing for you to try to re-assume it.

Actually, I am enjoying the "new and improved" posting style of Stem. He is much easier to read.

I agree. I think he should stick to it now he has shown he can write as formally and fluently as anybody else here.

But I think it is a point in favor of considering him to be a troll that he kept up the old pose for such a long time - and much of his posting so far has been no more than derailment, typical troll stuff.

[_Themis]

So Joseph Smith had desired, or God did, to have evidence that plates existed.

If it was God he didn't do a very good job. He didn't get any of the 8 to write there witness and sign it. He didn't even get them to sign anything. Joseph was very insistent that no one can see the plates. This doesn't really pass the smell test.

His claim of having such plates, is supported by evidence.

It's actually weak evidence, and points more to fraud then real ancient plates.

You an avowed critic agrees that he had plates.

Darth has been quite clear that he does not agree that Joseph had plates, and neither do I.

The 8 Witnesses testifies of seeing the plates.

There is no testimony from the 8 witnesses as a group.

Thus, we can be sure that the data here can be evidence of that which it claims to be--evidence that Joseph Smith had plates, ancient in appearance, and had writings on them.

Actually ancient in appearance is meaningless since none of them had the knowledge to determine this any more then did those viewing the kinderhook plates. Since none of them could read what they may have seen, we have no evidence that writings were on the plates.

[_Sophocles]

So Joseph Smith had desired, or God did, to have evidence that plates existed. His claim of having such plates, is supported by evidence. You an avowed critic agrees that he had plates. I suggest you aren't taking into account your own words in your previous explanation of relevance and foundation. The 8 Witnesses testifies of seeing the plates. They did not testify that Joseph Smith' translation was true or correct. Thus, we can be sure that the data here can be evidence of that which it claims to be--evidence that Joseph Smith had plates, ancient in appearance, and had writings on them.

Funny how neither Smith nor God saw a need to round up eleven of his friends and relatives to testify as to the existence of the papyrus scrolls containing (no, wait--appearing to contain) the writings of Abraham and Joseph. How is it that even avowed critics are today unable to deny the existence of said scrolls without such evidence?

[_static]

I agree. I think he should stick to it now he has shown he can write as formally and fluently as anybody else here.

Well now, stemelbow, this is definitely something. In my limited time here I've never seen Chav give anyone a compliment aside from himself. You should thank him.

But I think it is a point in favor of considering him to be a troll that he kept up the old pose for such a long time - and much of his posting so far has been no more than derailment, typical troll stuff.

Well, that didn't last long.