Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_huckelberry
_Emeritus
Posts: 4559
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:29 am

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _huckelberry »

Molok wrote:
huckelberry wrote:Because it does not change the meaning or importance of the first statement. The idea of God and human invention, being able to bring good in the future out of past evil does not justify the past evil.

Of course it changes the meaning of the first statement. He is choosing to offer some kind of silver lining to the institution of slavery by referencing some crappy, historically ignorant statement about some guy being glad he didn't have to grow up in an African hell hole. By this logic, the people in Africa who ended up being slaves were the lucky ones. Are you starting to see the issue yet?


I have paused a bit to see if it would seep in. No i do not see the issue. I see that some Blacks are glad they live in the US. Some are not. There are reasons not to be glad. Should we not try to make the future better? I do not think a desire not to hide the evils of the past would be good reason to not make the future better.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Chap »

static wrote:
Chap wrote:Gosh, that is a really amazing riposte. Whenever I want to distance myself from someone's opinion, I always begin by some kind of introduction like this:


Because there is nothing about this man other than this single quote he said. He's so one dimensional that when Schryver said that he enjoyed his company, he was only referring to the quote, not anything else about the man.

Garsh!


Yup. he was not referring to what the man said at all. That's why he introduces his quote with these words:

Schryver wrote:Carl M. Franklin, PhD, my new friend from New Orleans, listened patiently to the patronizing arguments of his Yellow Dog Democrat friends, then breathed a sigh and commenced to deliver one of the most impressive and impassioned speeches I have heard in my entire life. His words were eloquent, articulate, and profoundly earnest. I recount them to the best of my recollection:
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Carton
_Emeritus
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:56 pm

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Carton »

Darth J wrote:Oh, dear God, please, please, PLEASE let Schryver be published by the Maxwell Institute, and let that be merely a steeping stone to the glorious day when his work will be found in the Ensign.

And please, PLEASE let Schryver continue to influence his "friends" at the Maxwell Institute to do astoundingly stupid things like Peterson did by announcing and endorsing Schryver's blog and then joining him as charter members of the Mormon Apologists for Slavery Klan (MASK).

I'm sure the Romney campaign can't wait until this story starts making the rounds. Nothing like having the chief Mormon apologist and his racist/misogynist/liar-for-the-Lord lackey working overtime to address the vexing problems of Mormon history. :lol:!
"I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not."
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Buffalo »

It's not surprising that Dan & Will would lap that kind of stuff up. It jibes with the racist white paternalism espoused by both classical Mormonism and American conservatism.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Rollo Tomasi
_Emeritus
Posts: 4085
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:27 pm

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

static wrote:So? I find some good in almost everything. I find at least one good thing about the Nazi Regime: they made the Volkswagen. The rest is horrendous, but there is some measure of good. Nothing is all bad or all good, you see.

But the particular posts by Dan and Will we are discussing in this thread make the case for slavery as a "blessing" or "inspired." I find that sick. Dan and Will are getting awfully close to "Randy Bott territory," and you apparently have no problem with that. Well, many of us do.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Chap »

I have to go and do something else for a while, just to get the smell of Schryver out of my nostrils.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Molok
_Emeritus
Posts: 1832
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:31 am

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Molok »

huckelberry wrote:I have paused a bit to see if it would seep in. No i do not see the issue. I see that some Blacks are glad they live in the US. Some are not. There are reasons not to be glad. Should we not try to make the future better? I do not think a desire not to hide the evils of the past would be good reason to not make the future better.

I agree with you about being optimistic for the future, and I totally agree that we should not try to hide the evils of the past. I don't think Dr. Peterson is racist, either, but the thing is, the virtues of slavery really isn't a topic that is crying out to be heard, and portraying slaves as the lucky ones is more than a little offensive. It almost makes it sound like we did them a favor, which we certainly didn't.
_DarkHelmet
_Emeritus
Posts: 5422
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:38 pm

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Sophocles wrote:If Peterson's true intent was to drive home this point, why not use the injustices committed against his own ancestors as an example? Surely something good came of Missouri Executive Order 44 or the Haun's Mill massacre. Can't he see that he's much better situated to make his point from that angle?


Great point. Why not have DCP or Schryver deliver one of the most impassioned speeches that anyone has ever heard in their entire life? Every TBM should thank God almighty that he saw fit to drive their forefathers from that filthy Missouri hell hole and plant them in the Salt Lake valley where, after many generations, the majority of them are free from the persecutions inflicted on their ancestors. Yes, the persecution of the Mormons was inherently evil. Many suffered, not the least the persecutors stained by its shame. But there was a divine purpose in these things, and we must not mock god by failing to see his hand in all things.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Kishkumen »

It probably goes without saying that I find the ideology of people like Daniel Peterson and William Schryver completely repugnant, but I thought I would repeat that here. The pianist can be grateful for whatever he likes. The implicit, smug self-congratulations that go with their smarmy approval of his statement makes me ill.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Yoda

Re: Peterson and Schryver: Slavery Was a Blessing to Blacks

Post by _Yoda »

This is Dan's full statement. Since everyone here is criticizing him, let's at least examine his full statement:

DCP wrote:Now, I pass this anecdote along very warily, knowing that I'm in a very precarious position (although, despite the fact that I'm white, none of my ancestors were ever slaveholders) to say anything that seems in any way positive or exculpatory about slavery.  I don't deny for a moment that the enforced servitude of blacks in the United States was a horrific injustice even at its best, an inexcusable offense against God, humanity, and the fundamental principles of the American founding.  Those who advocated it and advanced it will have to account for their actions at Judgment Day, if, indeed, they haven't already done so.

But I do believe that good can, and often does, come out of evil.  Indeed, I think that this is one of the beauties of the atonement of Christ, that, even out of horror and failure and sin, good can still be extracted if we will repent from and move beyond the bad.  Not necessarily the good that would have come without the evil, but, still, some good nonetheless.

The economist Thomas Sowell is said to have made a point similar to that of Will Schryver's Mr. Franklin:  On a national radio talk show, a caller accused him of denying that slavery had had any real impact on American blacks.  "Oh, I don't deny that at all," Professor Sowell responded.  "If it weren't for slavery, you and I would likely be living in some Third World African hell hole."

Does this excuse slave ship captains or slave traders?  Not even slightly.  It does mean, though, that good can be manufactured from evil, that bad intentions can sometimes inadvertently lead to positive results.  That, in other words, there is still hope, even amidst pain and evil.

This is the true alchemy, turning lead into gold.

(bold emphasis mine)

My understanding of what Dan is trying to say here, is that even though the slavery incident was horrific and evil, some positive results did manage to come from it. He is not justifying slavery, or those who participated in forcing black people into slavery in any way.

I think that many of the posters in this thread are reading things into Dan's article that are simply not there.

Sophocles wrote:If Peterson's true intent was to drive home this point, why not use the injustices committed against his own ancestors as an example? Surely something good came of Missouri Executive Order 44 or the Haun's Mill massacre. Can't he see that he's much better situated to make his point from that angle?

I'm guessing that wouldn't serve his actual purpose, which I can only imagine has something to do with reimagining the LDS church's racist past.

I wonder if he would see any problem with using the Holocaust to make the same point?

I don't see him using the example to reimagine the LDS Church's standing on this at all. He flatly stated that holding people as slaves was evil. I think it would naturally follow that ill treatment of ANY people, slaves, in particular, would also be considered evil. Dan's point was more about how descendents of those from Africa who were taken as slaves have ended up having the opportunity to be prosperous. As far as why he didn't use the other examples, I don't know that the other examples you named would make his point quite as clearly as the one he gave.
Post Reply