Honestly...

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_sock puppet
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Honestly...

Post by _sock puppet »

When I was in primary, sunday school, MIA, and priesthood meetings, the topic of honesty was drilled into me and the other attendees. The topic was also raised from time to time in sacrament meetings, stake conferences and usually at least once per each general conference.

Of course, society by and large expects honesty too, and most parents teach honesty regardless of religion (and I am certain my parents would have). My own honesty is not the mere product of the Mormon influence in my life, but it certainly played a large part in the development of my sense of, take on and practices of honesty.

Nevertheless, LDS honesty seems focused on honesty 'in your dealings with your fellow man.' Not on honesty with yourself. My parents touched slightly on honesty with one's self. However, it was not until reading Hamlet in junior high that the importance of such was driven home to me. In Act I, Scene III, Polonius gives a father's blessing to his son, Laertes. It concludes, after going through a short list of do's and don't's (such as not lending or borrowing money from a friend)--
This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Duh! And as important as others are, oneself is primary to any being.

I do not cast aspersions or judgments on those that have stopped believing in their religious claims but continue to participate in it for family and social reasons. At least if not going so far as 'bearing a testimony' that they 'know the Church is true' or believe it, when in fact they do not. I think that is misleading others. (Others that are misled by the no-longer-believing participant merely continuing that participation without professions of belief is an assumption that those others are making, without deceptive statements of belief from that participant.)

This thread is started because I have a friend who has recently confided in me that she no longer believes, but continues participation in the LDS Church for family and social reasons. She is struggling with this. She has told her husband of her new disbelief, and her bishop too. Both have encouraged her to not only continue in her attendance and participation, but also are now particularly telling her she needs to take the stand during F&T meetings and bear a testimony of the truthfulness of the LDS gospel and its tenets. Her husband and her bishop say that she should do so for three reasons: (a) her children, (b) the other ward members, and (c) that by bearing her 'testimony' she will realize she actually has one and it will grow stronger. I remember hearing such from one of the 12 when I was in the Missionary Training Center. He said we had an obligation to each other to bear a testimony even if we did not yet, to bolster and encourage the other missionaries and then those that we would be 'teaching' in the mission field. And over the course of doing so, we'd develop and learn for ourselves such a testimony.

Like me, my friend believes that # (c) is merely a practice that self-brainwashes and it is not being honest with herself, and ## (a) and (b) reasons are to deceive and mislead her children and other ward members. Our discussion concluded with her observing that the LDS Church had helped teach her to be honest, but her LDS bishop (and her TBM husband and 'priesthood holder' in the house) is asking her to be dishonest.

Go figure.
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

sock puppet wrote:Nevertheless, LDS honesty seems focused on honesty 'in your dealings with your fellow man.' Not on honesty with yourself.


New age (Shakespearean) mumbo jumbo that you even hear in church sermons. "Honesty with one's self." What does that really mean? I lie to myself so that I believe in a lie?

Rather, don't let yourself be duped by others and don't dupe anybody. If religion (or the Mormons) isn't for you, then by all means do something else.
_Chap
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _Chap »

Yahoo Bot wrote:... What does that really mean? I lie to myself so that I believe in a lie?

...


Well, if I can't use the hypothesis that some people who have posted here have found a range of neat tricks for deceiving themselves and staying deceived (as, for instance, putting difficulties 'on the shelf' trying to 'gain a testimony in the bearing of it', and refusing to attend to any materials that might disturb them) I would have to conclude that were quite stupid.

I find the hypothesis of self-deception much more charitable.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Chap wrote:I find the hypothesis of self-deception much more charitable.


That's just unhelpful mumbling.

To me, "to thy own self be true" means nothing more than Ayn Rand objectivism. Don't do silly inconsistent things to divert you from your object, and don't be a parasite on the achievement of others. Not that I follow that crap, but it is what it is.

"Be honest with yourself" is trite and trivial. Believing in matters of religion is faith and hope, not self-deception. Those who follow Mohammed, and ignore the fact that he was an illiterate warmonger, are faithful believers, not self-deluded acolytes.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

What the heck is "new age (Shakespearean)"? I don't see the connection.

- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Chap
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _Chap »

Yahoo Bot wrote:
Chap wrote:I find the hypothesis of self-deception much more charitable.

... Believing in matters of religion is faith and hope, not self-deception. Those who follow Mohammed, and ignore the fact that he was an illiterate warmonger, are faithful believers, not self-deluded acolytes.


I wonder how we could adapt that last statement to the case of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? How would it go .... ?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_zeezrom
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _zeezrom »

The further I get away from LDS, the harder it gets to reflect and recall my old philosophies as a TBM. I think I have not changed very much. I recall focusing on being honest with myself and feeling guilty for not being honest enough with myself. I recall that LDS caused me from time to time, to consider my self honesty and not just honesty with others.

The deep reflection and change in my self had to come from within. I know this because i still reflect on the same things even without having Richard G Scott to remind me. It had to be me. No amount of church was going to change me. I learned that slowly over the years. The only thing that would change me was me. Maybe this is what keeps me from going back. I don't see how it would make me or my kids be more honest.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_sock puppet
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _sock puppet »

Yahoo Bot wrote:"Be honest with yourself" is trite and trivial. Believing in matters of religion is faith and hope, not self-deception.
I disagree. It is self-deception when the evidence cascades against what it is in which one has 'faith and hope', as it does against the Mormon faith for those that have dared look (contrary to BKP's admonition against looking).

To paraphrase another Shakespeare phrase, 'self-deception by any other name would smell as pungent'.
_zeezrom
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _zeezrom »

Maybe there is a gray area between self-deception and being honest with yourself?

For example: What if you are a person who is better at writing fiction when you pretend you are more than you really are?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Darth J
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Re: Honestly...

Post by _Darth J »

Chap wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:... Believing in matters of religion is faith and hope, not self-deception. Those who follow Mohammed, and ignore the fact that he was an illiterate warmonger, are faithful believers, not self-deluded acolytes.


I wonder how we could adapt that last statement to the case of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? How would it go .... ?


For those who are familiar with instances of Mormon history like Zion's Camp, and a certain someone promoting himself to lieutenant general, it might go something like this:

Those who follow Joseph Smith, and ignore the fact that he was an incompetent warmonger, are faithful believers, not self-deluded acolytes.
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