The cost of leaving

[_Joe Geisner]

MS,

I am very sorry to learn of your experience. When I read experiences like yours I realize how lucky I am to have the wife I have. Even though she believes in the Churches claims, she has always stood by me and even defended my beliefs. The Church has never been a family friendly Church, but it seems to be moving further away in the last couple of decades. I have to wonder if this movement is a result of the anti-gay rhetoric.

[_Yahoo Bot]

The church is not an idle third party in this. The church has actively worsened the effect by demonizing and marginalizing those who leave the church. They teach the membership that people leave because they're offended or because they want to sin.

I don't agree with that but agree that people, some people, in the Church believe that. But if your wife were devout Muslim or a devout Baptist, the same might occur. Do not be unequally yoked with a non-believer and all that stuff. I guess what I'm saying is that when you decided to marry a devout wife in a religious ceremony, which I assume is your case, you were basically acknowledging that there would be hell to pay in this life if you deviated from that norm and your wife didn't.

[_DarkHelmet]

That's weird. According to the apologists, people can leave the church freely and there is no shunning, pressure to stay, threats of divorce etc. You must be in one of those rogue wards the apologists always talk about.

It could be worse. If Brigham Young was still prophet he would just kill you and take your wife. Be grateful the church gained greater light and knowledge and no longer does things like that.

[_Stormy Waters]

I don't agree with that

I have multiple examples of church leaders villianizing apostates. So your 'disagreement' is meaningless.

[_Chap]

The church is not an idle third party in this. The church has actively worsened the effect by demonizing and marginalizing those who leave the church. They teach the membership that people leave because they're offended or because they want to sin.

I don't agree with that but agree that people, some people, in the Church believe that. But if your wife were devout Muslim or a devout Baptist, the same might occur. Do not be unequally yoked with a non-believer and all that stuff. I guess what I'm saying is that when you decided to marry a devout wife in a religious ceremony, which I assume is your case, you were basically acknowledging that there would be hell to pay in this life if you deviated from that norm and your wife didn't.

Thank you counsellor. I know you have to do the best for your client. Now moving on to exhibit A, we have the marriage service from the Episcopalian Prayer Book, 1979. It basically reflect the traditions of the western catholic church in the nature of the commitments made, and many protestant churches use something very similar. Here are two key passages:

The Declaration of Consent

The Celebrant says to the woman

N., will you have this man to be your husband; to live together in the covenant of marriage? Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health; and, forsaking all others, be faithful to him as long as you both shall live?

The Woman answers

I will.

The Celebrant says to the man

N., will you have this woman to be your wife; to live together in the covenant of marriage? Will you love her, comfort her, honor and keep her, in sickness and in health; and, forsaking all others, be faithful to her as long as you both shall live?

The Man answers

I will.

The Marriage

The Man, facing the woman and taking her right hand in his, says

In the Name of God, I, N., take you, N., to be my wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, until we are parted by death. This is my solemn vow.

Then they loose their hands, and the Woman, still facing the man, takes his right hand in hers, and says

In the Name of God, I, N., take you, N., to be my husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, until we are parted by death. This is my solemn vow.

Well, that doesn't seem to say anything about either of the partners undertaking to stay Episcopalian or else the deal is off. On the contrary, changes in circumstances are specifically enumerated and excluded from having influence on the vows made.

No, counsellor. You are just posting anything that pops into your head as usual. So long as it helps the church look god, it's OK.

[_sock puppet]

The Church has never been a family friendly Church, but it seems to be moving further away in the last couple of decades.

Spot on observation.

I have to wonder if this movement is a result of the anti-gay rhetoric.

Perhaps. There are so many instances in Mormonism, however, that drive your observation, the anti-gay rhetoric being but one of them.

[_Yahoo Bot]

That's weird. According to the apologists, people can leave the church freely and there is no shunning, pressure to stay, threats of divorce etc. You must be in one of those rogue wards the apologists always talk about.

I have not said that, but feel free to make up whatever you'd like about my position. I would agree that there are "threats of divorce" and "pressure to stay." I would agree that there is "shunning" going on. I agree with all that.

Well, that doesn't seem to say anything about either of the partners undertaking to stay Episcopalian or else the deal is off. On the contrary, changes in circumstances are specifically enumerated and excluded from having influence on the vows made.

No, counsellor. You are just posting anything that pops into your head as usual. So long as it helps the church look god, it's OK.

I take it you're not all that familiar with the social and cultural practices in other religions. Perhaps you live on the Wasatch Front.

[_Chap]

Well, that doesn't seem to say anything about either of the partners undertaking to stay Episcopalian or else the deal is off. On the contrary, changes in circumstances are specifically enumerated and excluded from having influence on the vows made.

No, counsellor. You are just posting anything that pops into your head as usual. So long as it helps the church look god, it's OK.

I take it you're not all that familiar with the social and cultural practices in other religions.

But you said:

I guess what I'm saying is that when you decided to marry a devout wife in a religious ceremony, which I assume is your case, you were basically acknowledging that there would be hell to pay in this life if you deviated from that norm and your wife didn't.

So you imply that a religious ceremony constitutes an acknowledgement that the partners are obliged to remain members of the relevant church. Can you back that up by finding the words of a religious ceremony used by a major denomination in the US that makes continuation of the marriage conditional on the partners both maintaining their religious allegiance?

[_Kevin Graham]

I don't agree with that but agree that people, some people, in the Church believe that.

That's an understatement if there ever was one. People in the LDS faith are taught by the Church how to make sense of the fact that people leave it. It is always their fault. There is never a good reason to leave the faith. According to Mormon teaching, people leave because of their own sin or desire to sin, just read it in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism under "apostate". Dan Peterson once posted that there is never a good reason to leave the Church because the Church is true, period. There is no such a thing as leaving for intellectual reasons. So if you find out that the bishop just molested your kids, you have no business leaving the faith, because the Church is true. If you find out Joseph Smith was a fraud who couldn't control his hormonal urges, then you're at fault for trying to leave because, well, the Church is true. And it goes on and one with this reasoning.

But if your wife were devout Muslim or a devout Baptist, the same might occur.

Muslim maybe, but probably not Baptist. You don't seem to appreciate just how different Mormonism is. I have to deal with my LDS wife's complaints in ways I'd never have to endure with a wife of another faith. Why? Because according to her worldview, I'm screwing up her salvation since we were married in the temple.

Do not be unequally yoked with a non-believer and all that stuff. I guess what I'm saying is that when you decided to marry a devout wife in a religious ceremony, which I assume is your case, you were basically acknowledging that there would be hell to pay in this life if you deviated from that norm and your wife didn't.

But some of us never imagined that possibility.

I take it you're not all that familiar with the social and cultural practices in other religions. Perhaps you live on the Wasatch Front

I'm very familiar with them, and aside from Islam (where deviating from the faith could mean death in some cases), Mormonism is rather unique among the Abrahamic faiths. Especially in Utah where being non-LDS in some areas makes you a minority. Show me another area of the country where the general population (exceeding a few thousand) is as much as 95% of one particular denomination. Last I heard, Utah is roughly 50% LDS in the Metro SLC area, which means the other Utah areas are anywhere between 80-98% LDS. Where I was at two weeks ago, you could drive miles and miles before you finally came across another chapel that wasn't owned by the LDS Church. But outside Utah Mormons have a tendency to stick together just the same; not necessarily geographically, but socially. So In Brazil you find the same phenomenon taking place when someone leaves the faith. Why? Because the LDS faith teaches about this event and it is never good for teh person engaging in it. Baptists don't have a doctrine about people who move from the Baptist Church to say, the Lutheran Church. Baptists still consider you Christian, and thus headed for heaven. Mormons on the other hand, consider your the "other" if you leave. You're a friggin "Gentile" for cryin out loud. You've turned your back on the one true Church and the Holy Spirit, which makes you worthy of a lesser kingdom.

[_Buffalo]

Yahoo Bot has something of a point - some Christian folks do divorce/shun family for falling from the faith. But it's not usually for changing denomination. They're much less rigid about that. Mostly if you still believe in Jesus, they're all right with you. For Mormons, it doesn't matter if you still believe in Jesus. If you don't believe in Joseph, it's all over.


And I don't think any American church has as much power to destroy someone's life, at least within Utah. Utah is a "special" place.

I don't think there's any statistical information on who does it more.