Cultishness...

[_Kishkumen]

Just as a persons past actions speaks to the kind of person they are I believe that an organizations past actions can tell us something about an organazition. Especially when those actions haven't been repudiated or apologies made.

What exactly do you want them to apologize for here? "We are sorry we used to believe in these things and practice these ritual actions." To what end would they be apologizing for these things?

Do you feel traumatized personally by polygamy? Adam-God? Former aspects of the endowment?

You very well may. I don't know. I actually went through the pre-1991 endowment, and I don't feel traumatized by the experience in the least, but maybe that is just me.

[_Kishkumen]

Back in 1990 when I pantomimed slashing my own throat and disemboweling myself I went from Happy Sunshine Mormon to WTF Mormon. I couldn't believe what was being done, and what was expected of me. It was insane.

It was only a matter of time before I left the Church after that...

- VRDRC

And I say, if that was how you felt about it, then that was an appropriate reaction for you.

[_maklelan]

And I say, if that was how you felt about it, then that was an appropriate reaction for you.

The 19th century frontier/farmer orientation of most early members of the church mitigated the discomfort with such ceremonies, especially where the Masons were prominent. People who were conditioned to oaths, frontier violence/justice, slaughtered animals, etc., were less likely to be creeped out by it. Imagine performing the oath ceremony that Abraham went through, sawing a cow in half and swearing that the same would happen to you if you broke the oath. In a culture where animals were sacrificed on a regular basis this was less horrifying than it would be today. The changing times and the urbanization of the modern church necessitated the alteration, although they probably held on too long.

[_Stormy Waters]

What exactly do you want them to apologize for here? "We are sorry we used to believe in these things and practice these ritual actions." To what end would they be apologizing for these things?

Do you feel traumatized personally by polygamy? Adam-God? Former aspects of the endowment?

You very well may. I don't know. I actually went through the pre-1991 endowment, and I don't feel traumatized by the experience in the least, but maybe that is just me.

I'm not insisting on an apology. I'm stating that past actions say something about an organization, especially in the abscense of any kind of repudiation or apology.
Although I'd be willing to wager that for many pantomiming their own deaths was an unpleasant experience.

[_Kishkumen]

I'm not insisting on an apology. I'm stating that past actions say something about an organization, especially in the abscense of any kind of repudiation or apology.
Although I'd be willing to wager that for many pantomiming their own deaths was an unpleasant experience.

OK. Fair enough. I am not among those who were disturbed by it, but I have heard enough from those that were to appreciate that it was an unpleasant experience for a number of people.

Although I find it interesting, I have a problem with the idea of the cult. I recall the families of those who took their own lives in the Heaven's Gate fiasco. Some of them acknowledged that the films they saw of their kids right before they committed suicide were the happiest images they had ever seen of them. Doubtless this was unsettling, but it raises a number of interesting questions.

I say if you are happy and you aren't hurting others, stay. If you are unhappy, leave. This country affords us the freedom of making such a choice. The LDS Church, as sects go, has an open-door policy. They rarely bother me, and I am still on the rolls. When they do contact me, they are friendly. No one comes with a burlap bag and a knife to drag me off to a fenced compound.

[_Kishkumen]

The 19th century frontier/farmer orientation of most early members of the church mitigated the discomfort with such ceremonies, especially where the Masons were prominent. People who were conditioned to oaths, frontier violence/justice, slaughtered animals, etc., were less likely to be creeped out by it. Imagine performing the oath ceremony that Abraham went through, sawing a cow in half and swearing that the same would happen to you if you broke the oath. In a culture where animals were sacrificed on a regular basis this was less horrifying than it would be today. The changing times and the urbanization of the modern church necessitated the alteration, although they probably held on too long.

To be honest with you, I thought the penalties were cool. I was let down when they were removed from the ceremony. Of course, I placed them in the context of initiation rituals in tribal societies, where real wounding is a common feature of the ritual process.

[_Buffalo]

What would be the best term for this NRM?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

An NRM and a terrorist organization. Why is the rhetorical sting of the word "cult" so important to you?

It seems like a more accurate term for this kind of group. NRM is too neutral. It's like referring to a gunshot wound as new orifice creation event. Or, in fact, referring to terrorists as political action groups. Terrorist is not a neutral term, and neither is cult. Both can be used accurately or inaccurately, but they're valid words when applied accurately.

There's nothing wrong with NRM as a blanket term for any new faith movement, but lumping toxic and benign groups under the label with no additional term to distinguish the two seems forced and unproductive.

[_maklelan]

It seems like a more accurate term for this kind of group.

But it's a value judgment. A word can be accurate without being condemnatory.

NRM is too neutral. It's like referring to a gunshot wound as new orifice creation event.

No it isn't. "Gunshot wound" is not a value judgment. Those are both neutral terms.

Or, in fact, referring to terrorists as political action groups.

I don't think those two terms semantically align at all. Terrorism can be motivated by far more than politics.

Terrorist is not a neutral term, and neither is cult.

It's quite a bit more neutral than "cult," and it describes quite a different kind of group.

Both can be used accurately or inaccurately, but they're valid words when applied accurately.

I don't think the word "cult" has a legitimate definition for the sense in which you use it. All you can do is explain the numerous different ways it's been used by others, but each way serves a specific rhetorical purpose unrelated to any real lexical foundation.

There's nothing wrong with NRM as a blanket term for any new faith movement, but lumping toxic and benign groups under the label with no additional term to distinguish the two seems forced and unproductive.

But there are additional terms. There are numerous different adjectives one can use to designate an NRM as violent. "Cult" just carries semantic baggage with it that indicates a particular degree of sectarianism and prejudice.

[_maklelan]

To be honest with you, I thought the penalties were cool. I was let down when they were removed from the ceremony. Of course, I placed them in the context of initiation rituals in tribal societies, where real wounding is a common feature of the ritual process.

Another good parallel, but your perspective obviously represents a bit informed a take than most who are talking about it on the internet.

[_Kishkumen]

Another good parallel, but your perspective obviously represents a bit informed a take than most who are talking about it on the internet.

For this reason I somewhat regret the fact that education about the temple has been so terribly limited in the LDS Church. Lacking any proper intellectual context for what they were going through, people were simply shocked and put off by it all, when that might not have been the case if their preparation for the experience had been adequate.

When I went through, my mother led me to believe it would be a lot stranger than what it turned out to be. As a result, I was not fazed by it.

Temple preparation classes are insufficient preparation, in my opinion.