The Light of Christ

[_gdemetz]

Thews, I shot you down on baptism for the dead, and you are back again already? You and Albion make a good pair of anti's! You guys try to get out of that one, and then I will attempt to explain another one for you. The problem is that you guys try to simplify things which are not simple, and I have to go back and explain basic things as if I were teaching middle school!

[_Mercury]

Now I would like to ask a question. What man made religion could come up with such glorious truths?!?

Mormonism

Thread over.

[_thews]

Thews, I shot you down on baptism for the dead, and you are back again already? You and Albion make a good pair of anti's! You guys try to get out of that one, and then I will attempt to explain another one for you. The problem is that you guys try to simplify things which are not simple, and I have to go back and explain basic things as if I were teaching middle school!

You aren't intelligent enough to have a conversation with gdemetz. As I've said many times, you claimed the six points I made were ridiculous and never said why. I asked for a CFR using the site you claimed I could find the answer (FairMormon). If you choose to have a conversation without changing it once you've painted yourself in a corner, then please address the topic.

[_Albion]

For the sake of clarity, gdemetz, what exactly am I suposed to "get out of"? Where have you jumped to now?

[_thews]

You didn't address my points. You say that baptism for the dead is ridiculous. I say that this is just another evidence of your ignorance. I refer you to the world famous "The Interpreters Bible" (non Mormon), and I will write their quote here so you won't even have to look it up!

1 Corinthians 15:29: "Baptism for the dead, that rapture of the cosmos. Paul turns to an interesting item of church practice in Corinth, and probably elsewhere too, and uses it to reinforce his main point..."

Baptism for the dead was abolished by the Catholic church in 250 AD, but despite this the practiced continued among true Christians which led to the council of Carthage to forbid any further practice in 397 AD (6th canon)!

Just in case you're feeling full of yourself for the latest diversion here, you haven't shot anything down, nor have you addressed the topic. Just for your information on the KoolAid you're drinking when you claim Christians dead-dunk:

http://carm.org/baptism-for-the-dead-in ... ians-15-29

What is baptism for the dead mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29?

by Matt Slick

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" (1 Cor. 15:29, NASB).

Numerous explanations have been offered for this verse, ranging from the inane to the sophisticated. Mormonism (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), in particular, has claimed that this verse supports their view of baptism for the dead. In their practice, individuals go to their local Mormon temple, dress appropriately for a baptism, representatively adopt the name of a person who has died, and then the Mormon is baptized in water for that deceased person. This way, the dead person has fulfilled the requirements of salvation in the afterworld and can enjoy further spiritual benefits in the spiritual realm.

But, the Mormons are incorrect. They have usurped this verse and taken it out of context. So, let's examine 1 Cor. 15 briefly so we can see what Paul is talking about when he mentions baptism for the dead.

In verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ was the first one raised - in a glorified body - and next will be those who are His at His return. Verses 24 - 29 then mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.1 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.2

This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead?

However, some are not convinced by this argument and state that the word "they" is not in the Greek and, therefore, Paul is not speaking about the pagans. Let's take a look.

Literally, the verse is translated as "Since what will do the being immersed on behalf of the dead if wholly dead not are raised why also are they immersed on behalf of them."

The issue here is the word, "baptizontai" -- "they are baptized." It is the present, passive, indicative, 3rd person, plural. In other words, it is THEY ARE BEING BAPTIZED or, THEY ARE BAPTIZED.

I -- first person singular
you (singular) -- second person singular
he/she/it -- third person singular
we -- first person plural
you (plural) -- second person plural
they -- third person plural

It is the latter form, the third person plural (they) in which the verb "baptizo" is found. Therefore, the best translation is "THEY are baptized."

[_gdemetz]

I glad you mentioned 2 Timothy! Those verses are referring to you guys! As I said before, you guys can always come up with some little cheap anti Mormon site which wants to change history. However, what helped my conversion were the real scholarly sites! I would go to the university library and research real factual history and teachings, etc. The interpreters Bible has 900 scholars who know these things! I will also give you another real scholarly source, "A Companion to the Bible."

"At Corinth, certain CHRISTIANS had themselves baptized substitutionally for some of the dead who had not had the opportunity of hearing the gospel, in the desire to place them too within the benefit of Christ's death. This baptism had the aim of giviing these dead a chance of rising again for salvation."

In other words, a chance to be born of the water, etc. which is a requisite for salvation! My gosh man! There are many records of baptisms for the dead being performed by Christians for centuries, and the apostate council of Carthage tries to eliminate it as late as 397 AD with it's 6th canon which forbade any further practice! You apostates try to change doctrine, and even change history!!!

But wait! Here is another site which agrees with you: "Papa Joes born again site" - learn the truth about those ole Mormons! How the had all them there wives, and haw they baptized all them dead people!

[_Drifting]

I glad you mentioned 2 Timothy! Those verses are referring to you guys! As I said before, you guys can always come up with some little cheap anti Mormon site which wants to change history. However, what helped my conversion were the real scholarly sites! I would go to the university library and research real factual history and teachings, etc. The interpreters Bible has 900 scholars who know these things! I will also give you another real scholarly source, "A Companion to the Bible."

"At Corinth, certain CHRISTIANS had themselves baptized substitutionally for some of the dead who had not had the opportunity of hearing the gospel, in the desire to place them too within the benefit of Christ's death. This baptism had the aim of giviing these dead a chance of rising again for salvation."

In other words, a chance to be born of the water, etc. which is a requisite for salvation! My gosh man! There are many records of baptisms for the dead being performed by Christians for centuries, and the apostate council of Carthage tries to eliminate it as late as 397 AD with it's 6th canon which forbade any further practice! You apostates try to change doctrine, and even change history!!!

But wait! Here is another site which agrees with you: "Papa Joes born again site" - learn the truth about those ole Mormons! How the had all them there wives, and haw they baptized all them dead people!

If it is a prerequisite for salvation what happens to those aboriginal babies in the Amazon or the Australian outback who die without any record of their existence?

[_Albion]

Just for fun: "And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said, Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from Almigfhty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, as to the mortal body." Book of Mormon, Mosiah 18;13. The Book of Mormon makes no mention of baptism for the dead but it is claimed it is the "fullness of the gospel".

[_Drifting]

Just for fun: "And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said, Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from Almigfhty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, as to the mortal body." Book of Mormon, Mosiah 18;13. The Book of Mormon makes no mention of baptism for the dead but it is claimed it is the "fullness of the gospel".

But wait...
This can't be right...
This would mean baptism is only an ordinance for...this life...

[_thews]

I glad you mentioned 2 Timothy! Those verses are referring to you guys! As I said before, you guys can always come up with some little cheap anti Mormon site which wants to change history. However, what helped my conversion were the real scholarly sites! I would go to the university library and research real factual history and teachings, etc. The interpreters Bible has 900 scholars who know these things! I will also give you another real scholarly source, "A Companion to the Bible."

"At Corinth, certain CHRISTIANS had themselves baptized substitutionally for some of the dead who had not had the opportunity of hearing the gospel, in the desire to place them too within the benefit of Christ's death. This baptism had the aim of giviing these dead a chance of rising again for salvation."

In other words, a chance to be born of the water, etc. which is a requisite for salvation! My gosh man! There are many records of baptisms for the dead being performed by Christians for centuries, and the apostate council of Carthage tries to eliminate it as late as 397 AD with it's 6th canon which forbade any further practice! You apostates try to change doctrine, and even change history!!!

But wait! Here is another site which agrees with you: "Papa Joes born again site" - learn the truth about those ole Mormons! How the had all them there wives, and haw they baptized all them dead people!

Head still stuck in sand. Christians don't need to dead dunk people, because 1800 years didn't pass between when Jesus Christ died and Joseph Smith used his magical occult rocks placed in a hat. Baptism for the dead is a Mormon theology to give souls the chance to get out of Mormon limbo... end. Still waiting for you to reference the FairMormon information to back up what you said, but I understand why you need to continue to run off on tangents you believe you can argue based on interpretation. One more time... you claimed the six things I listed were "ridiculous" and could be proven wrong using Fair. You have fallen on your face with racism and polygamy, so there's still four more you can fall on your face again... waiting.