Mormonism not Christian...

[_Drifting]

II Mormons are Christians why can't Catholics go into LDS Temples?

[_lulu]

Are Alawites Moslems?

Be careful, both sides are armed.

[_Yoda]

Here are some thoughts that I posted from my site. We have a similar thread:


Subject: Re: Does Mormonism Fit Under The Umbrella Of Christianity?

I think that it honestly depends on how large of an umbrella we are talking about, and that is where the debate occurs.

I think that if we are talking about a broad structure of churches, both orthodox and unorthodox, that worship Jesus, then the LDS Church qualifies. However, since the LDS Church has unorthodox tenets, it would NOT fall under the umbrella of orthodox Christian churches.

It seems that the deciding factor between orthodox and unorthodox Christian churches seems to be the issue of the Trinity. Since the LDS religion views the Trinity differently from other Christian churches in the sense that we view the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as three distinct, separate entities, and also that we refer to Christ as our older brother rather than our father, the LDS Church is unorthodox. Also, the whole story of the pre-existence where we view Satan and Jesus as brothers, but Satan as fallen is again, unorthodox. Don't Catholics view Satan as a fallen angel, though? I was always unsure about that.

I think the final point of unorthodoxy with LDS is the fact that we believe that we have the potential to become Gods, like our Heavenly Father is. The orthodox view is that those who live the commandments and accept Christ will be able to dwell with him forever in happiness, but will not be what He is, as no one can be what He is.

How am I doing?

Where LDS get offended and confused about this type of categorization is that there are also ways that we actually DO fit in the same category.

For instance, we believe that Christ came to the earth, that he died for us, that he performed miracles, that he spoke the truth when he preached, and hold His teachings, such as the beattitudes, just as dear as any other Christian.

[_madeleine]

Here are some thoughts that I posted from my site. We have a similar thread:


Subject: Re: Does Mormonism Fit Under The Umbrella Of Christianity?

I think that it honestly depends on how large of an umbrella we are talking about, and that is where the debate occurs.

I think that if we are talking about a broad structure of churches, both orthodox and unorthodox, that worship Jesus, then the LDS Church qualifies. However, since the LDS Church has unorthodox tenets, it would NOT fall under the umbrella of orthodox Christian churches.

It seems that the deciding factor between orthodox and unorthodox Christian churches seems to be the issue of the Trinity. Since the LDS religion views the Trinity differently from other Christian churches in the sense that we view the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as three distinct, separate entities,

That's the kicker, no doubt. We worship a different God. I wouldn't say a Hindu is a Christian, they worship different gods than I do. As do Mormons. That doesn't mean I hate Hindus, or Mormons. Who is being worshipped is very central to what defines a religion.

and also that we refer to Christ as our older brother rather than our father

We don't call the Son "Father".

, the LDS Church is unorthodox. Also, the whole story of the pre-existence where we view Satan and Jesus as brothers, but Satan as fallen is again, unorthodox. Don't Catholics view Satan as a fallen angel, though? I was always unsure about that.

Christians, not just Catholics, view Satan as a fallen angel. The difference is in how we view what angels are. They are a different creation, spirit in form. They aren't human, never were human, never will be human. Christians don't hold an idea that creatures change from one form to another, not any more than you could say a dog can become a cat and then go back to being a dog.

I think the final point of unorthodoxy with LDS is the fact that we believe that we have the potential to become Gods, like our Heavenly Father is. The orthodox view is that those who live the commandments and accept Christ will be able to dwell with him forever in happiness, but will not be what He is, as no one can be what He is.

No doubt, thinking that you are punky gods in training is not Christian. Not even for Catholics and Orthodox who believe in the beatific vision and theosis (respectively). Some Mormons confuse their doctrines of becoming gods with ours, but they are very different, beginning with the same problem as stated for angels. We don't switch natures. The created can never be the Creator, or a creator.

Where LDS get offended and confused about this type of categorization is that there are also ways that we actually DO fit in the same category.

For instance, we believe that Christ came to the earth, that he died for us, that he performed miracles, that he spoke the truth when he preached, and hold His teachings, such as the beattitudes, just as dear as any other Christian.

I think the underlying problem is, Mormons deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, which is paramount to Christian belief. Central in every way. The other is the why of the atonement. Mormons believe it is so they progress, Jesus being some kind of god-enabler. Christians believe by one's man transgression all fell, by another Man's Sacrifice all were raised up to be children of God, BY ADOPTION.

The Mormon view of Jesus as just another spirit child of God is problematic for Christians.

[_thews]

Here are some thoughts that I posted from my site. We have a similar thread:

Subject: Re: Does Mormonism Fit Under The Umbrella Of Christianity?

I think that it honestly depends on how large of an umbrella we are talking about, and that is where the debate occurs.

Disagree. Mormon doctrine isn't Christian to non-Mormons... that's why they are called "Mormons" to define the doctrine they accept.

I think that if we are talking about a broad structure of churches, both orthodox and unorthodox, that worship Jesus, then the LDS Church qualifies. However, since the LDS Church has unorthodox tenets, it would NOT fall under the umbrella of orthodox Christian churches.

Again, Mormon doctrine is exclusive to the LDS faith. To imply it's Christian, even remotely, also implies the Christian faith accepts the Mormon theology of Joseph Smith. There is only one faith that accepts Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (although there are breakdowns of different sects), and all of those sects fall under the "Mormon" umbrella. There is no gray here... "Christians" reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God.

It seems that the deciding factor between orthodox and unorthodox Christian churches seems to be the issue of the Trinity. Since the LDS religion views the Trinity differently from other Christian churches in the sense that we view the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as three distinct, separate entities, and also that we refer to Christ as our older brother rather than our father, the LDS Church is unorthodox. Also, the whole story of the pre-existence where we view Satan and Jesus as brothers, but Satan as fallen is again, unorthodox. Don't Catholics view Satan as a fallen angel, though? I was always unsure about that.

You're straining to find some sort of parallel that fits an argument that's supposedly relevant. Answer this question: Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God? If you do, then you're a Mormon. Mormons are not Christians, because Christians are not Mormons. You imply the differences in core doctrine is subtle, choosing to dissect the differences in Christian theology is somehow relevant, when it's not. The crux of the definition lies in the doctrine that's rejected and not accepted, especially when all of Mormon doctrine is rejects by Christian faiths, to include the JST revised Bible.

I think the final point of unorthodoxy with LDS is the fact that we believe that we have the potential to become Gods, like our Heavenly Father is. The orthodox view is that those who live the commandments and accept Christ will be able to dwell with him forever in happiness, but will not be what He is, as no one can be what He is.

Dead dunking, Kolob, Masonic rituals, magical seer stones, incorrectly translated pagan documents, polygamy in heaven and about a billion other things define Mormonism as completely different than Christianity, and that's because it's not Christian in any way, shape or form. Notice how you aren't using similarities in your arguments between Christian theology and Mormon theology, and that's because they are worlds apart.

How am I doing?

Poorly. You're a Christian who can't admit to the world you think Joseph Smith was a charlatan, so you continue to pose these ridiculous arguments to appease your stance that you can practice Christianity in a Mormon church. You're not a Christian if you profess to believe in the truth claims of Joseph Smith, and you're simply not being honest if you don't believe in the truth claims of Joseph Smith, yet pretend you do.

Where LDS get offended and confused about this type of categorization is that there are also ways that we actually DO fit in the same category.

No there aren't any ways that Joseph Smith, a false prophet of God, is part of the Christian faith. Mormons used to like to be called Mormons, because that's what they are.

For instance, we believe that Christ came to the earth, that he died for us, that he performed miracles, that he spoke the truth when he preached, and hold His teachings, such as the beattitudes, just as dear as any other Christian.

Using "we" in the above includes you as one who believes in the truth claims of Joseph Smith. I'm calling you out here Liz, and that's because you're lying. If you do believe in Joseph Smith's truth claims, please state that in this thread and I will promptly apologize. I'm not wrong here, but all you have to do is state how you genuinely believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and I am prepared to eat crow. I expect you to do what you always do, which is just run away and make the same ridiculous arguments later.

[_Yoda]

Thews, you and I will never agree because you view things as very black and white. It is either all or nothing with you, and that is just not the way I see things. I don't see how that makes me a liar. I am, and have always been truthful about what I believe. Do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Yes, however, he made some HUGE ERRORS and sinned, much like the prophet, David did. (of David and Bathsheba). I believe that Fanny Alger was Joseph's Bathsheba. And after Fanny, his judgment was never the same.

Does that mean that there aren't some concepts of Christ that are similar between how Mormons and Christians view Christ? I don't think so. Thews, don't you believe that Christ came to earth? So do I. Do you believe He died for our sins? So do I. Do you believe in the beauty of his Sermon on the Mount? So do I.

[_Nightlion]

What a preposterous analogy. Your Beatles analogy would also include Jews, so your argument must be that Jews are Christians too. According to Joseph Smith, all Christian religions are wrong, so to label Mormonism "Christianity" makes as much sense as Christians labeling Judaism Christianity because Jews accept part of the Christian doctrine. The important factor in this definition is what doctrine the religion rejects, and all Christian religions reject the doctrine of Joseph Smith as false.

I thought I just proved that there are no Christian churches, not yet. Everyone made up their own religion off the legacy of Christ who pretend today to be Christian, Mormons too.

And of course the Jews were even more the original Christians. The Old Testament Saints and prophets were Christians whom the Lord gave a new heart to. Same gospel. They forsook the world of Belial and were no longer counted the children of Belial, as with Hannah the mother of Samuel, and as when the Lord gave Saul a new heart and he prophecied among the prophets. The gifts of Pentecost are precisely what the Old Testament Jews were receiving to be prophets.

How could they have rejected their Messiah if they were not his people and hence the Jew are today a very screwed up version of original Christianity. And the popular Christians today are a scewed up version of fast food Jesus, thank you very much, and the Mormons are a screwed up version of Christianity where the Lord gave them strong delusion that they believe a lie.....We can become God........because they did not love the truth and rejected Christ commandments to bring forth and establish his Zion against the evil day of Satan's lying wonders that we all live in presently. ugh!

Thanks a heck of a lot you wiener Mormons who coward out of Zion and let the world fall into the chains of darkness we all suffer under today. Just try and come unto Christ successfully in this day and age, I double dare you. You have no clue how and never will. Let the Lord bring his Zion from where he took it that he might have a people waiting for him when he returns. ain't nobody here gonna get up to speed. YOU JUST DO NOT CARE EVEN SLIGHTLY putzes!

[_lulu]

Were the Bogomils Christians?

[_thews]

Thews, you and I will never agree because you view things as very black and white. It is either all or nothing with you, and that is just not the way I see things. I don't see how that makes me a liar. I am, and have always been truthful about what I believe. Do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Yes, however, he made some HUGE ERRORS and sinned, much like the prophet, David did. (of David and Bathsheba). I believe that Fanny Alger was Joseph's Bathsheba. And after Fanny, his judgment was never the same.

Ok, your witness to the world is that you believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, and his truth claims. Let me remind you of your post where you failed to answer the question regarding your conclusions:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22681

I feel like I am finally at a place where I am at peace with how I feel in regards to the Church.

I have been able to establish a way to still be an active member, and participate on my terms. That is, in a large part, due to the support I have received here.

My path is not for everyone, and I completely respect those who decide to go a different direction. Everyone has to do what is best for themselves and for their family.

I am comfortable with my choice, and with the opportunity I have to voice my concerns here.

Do you mind answering what "conclusions" you came to? I asked before, but you decided not to answer.

Does that mean that there aren't some concepts of Christ that are similar between how Mormons and Christians view Christ? I don't think so. Thews, don't you believe that Christ came to earth? So do I. Do you believe He died for our sins? So do I. Do you believe in the beauty of his Sermon on the Mount? So do I.

I believe Jesus Christ was God, and Joseph Smith was a charlatan and nothing more. Magic rocks (seer stones) placed in a stove-pipe hat used to see evil treasure guardians is where you find the source of Mormon doctrine for your prophet of God. You believe in Joseph Smith's doctrine, so you also must believe in D&C 132:

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

In summation Liz, thanks for your witness professing belief in the truth claims of Joseph Smith. I stand corrected and apologize for insinuating you believed Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God, when you accept Joseph Smith as your prophet of God and accept Mormon doctrine as true. As you worship in the church of Mormon doctrine and hold its beliefs near and dear to your heart, I applaud you for accepting D&C132 as the word of God and all it encompasses. I should never have doubted your witness:

http://www.apostolic.edu/biblestudy/files/9th-com.htm

THE 9th COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

[_thews]

What a preposterous analogy. Your Beatles analogy would also include Jews, so your argument must be that Jews are Christians too. According to Joseph Smith, all Christian religions are wrong, so to label Mormonism "Christianity" makes as much sense as Christians labeling Judaism Christianity because Jews accept part of the Christian doctrine. The important factor in this definition is what doctrine the religion rejects, and all Christian religions reject the doctrine of Joseph Smith as false.

I thought I just proved that there are no Christian churches, not yet. Everyone made up their own religion off the legacy of Christ who pretend today to be Christian, Mormons too.

You didn't get the "heaven, party of one" joke did you? You may see yourself as the epicenter of humanity, but you must understand that you are alone in your views.

And of course the Jews were even more the original Christians. The Old Testament Saints and prophets were Christians whom the Lord gave a new heart to. Same gospel. They forsook the world of Belial and were no longer counted the children of Belial, as with Hannah the mother of Samuel, and as when the Lord gave Saul a new heart and he prophecied among the prophets. The gifts of Pentecost are precisely what the Old Testament Jews were receiving to be prophets.

Your insanity doesn't negate the doctrine Judaism accepts and rejects.

How could they have rejected their Messiah if they were not his people and hence the Jew are today a very screwed up version of original Christianity. And the popular Christians today are a scewed up version of fast food Jesus, thank you very much, and the Mormons are a screwed up version of Christianity where the Lord gave them strong delusion that they believe a lie.....We can become God........because they did not love the truth and rejected Christ commandments to bring forth and establish his Zion against the evil day of Satan's lying wonders that we all live in presently. ugh!

You actually believe you are the only who has it right don't you?

Thanks a heck of a lot you wiener Mormons who coward out of Zion and let the world fall into the chains of darkness we all suffer under today. Just try and come unto Christ successfully in this day and age, I double dare you. You have no clue how and never will. Let the Lord bring his Zion from where he took it that he might have a people waiting for him when he returns. ain't nobody here gonna get up to speed. YOU JUST DO NOT CARE EVEN SLIGHTLY putzes!

It's 7:04, have you taken your meds yet?