Tobin wrote:I'm not going to get into pedantic discussion with you about Facsimile No. 3 as you already know my position. And the knowledge of whether or not the gold plates existed is of little value if you don't believe their contents, so why create a spectacle? The reason they were created was for their content and to lead people to God and experiencing God. Whether or not you choose to follow the Lord and do what he asks is up to you.
FACT: The same man who gave us the Book of Mormon translations (including KJV Isaiah) also gave us the false Explanations of Facsimile No. 3. He is a liar on both accounts.
FACT: If there were real golden plates with the Book of Mormon on them it would be of great value!
Hell no, I won't follow the Lord. He is a murderer and an angry god that I want nothing to do with. The Book of Mormon is something Joe Smith made up because there are no facts to show otherwise. No plates and no evidence. All you have, Tobin, is your poor misguided faith in things not seen. Your precious Book of Mormon is right on par with the silly Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 -- cut from the same lying cloth. Holy Joe's magic!
Tobin wrote:... the knowledge of whether or not the gold plates existed is of little value if you don't believe their contents...
For yourself (a believer in the content), how valuable is your knowledge about the existence of the plates?
I know there is a God, so I have faith that the plates exist and the Book of Mormon is true. It is this basis thing we were discussing.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I know there is a God, so I have faith that the plates exist and the Book of Mormon is true. It is this basis thing we were discussing.
You do not KNOW that there is a God. You believe there is a God. You have faith there is a God. But you do not know it. You're just a mortal man living in mortality.
Let me tell me what you do know. You know you woke up to face another day and you're alive. You know others are alive based on seeing them through the proofs that exist in showing tangible evidence. But to say you know there is a God is leaping past evidence and asserting your faith as if it was proof.
I will agree with you that you think you know there is a God. People think all kinds of things.
Tobin wrote: I have faith that the plates exist and the Book of Mormon is true. It is this basis thing we were discussing.
Do you have faith that errors of Isaiah that Joseph Smith stole from the KJV are also true seeing it's a portion of the Book of Mormon?
I could never have faith in something that has been proven to be untrue. The KJV errors of Isaiah didn't even exist prior to the KJV! So, they couldn't have been on the golden plates. It seems your faith is in things that don't exist or are wrong.
Tobin wrote:I know there is a God, so I have faith that the plates exist and the Book of Mormon is true. It is this basis thing we were discussing.
You do not KNOW that there is a God. You believe there is a God. You have faith there is a God. But you do not know it. You're just a mortal man living in mortality.
Let me tell me what you do know. You know you woke up to face another day and you're alive. You know others are alive based on seeing them through the proofs that exist in showing tangible evidence. But to say you know there is a God is leaping past evidence and asserting your faith as if it was proof.
I will agree with you that you think you know there is a God. People think all kinds of things.
Paul O
Let me say it again Paul. I know there is a God and that is why I am a Mormon. That is really the only basis to being a Mormon Paul and it is precisely why you are not a Mormon. It is also the reason there will always be true followers of God, no matter the faith. You can protest that there is no God until the day you die, it will have zero impact on us. There are only the two camps in this world, those opposed to God and those who follow God. You clearly have decided which side you wish to be on.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Let me say it again Paul. I know there is a God and that is why I am a Mormon. That is really the only basis to being a Mormon Paul and it is precisely why you are not a Mormon. It is also the reason there will always be true followers of God, no matter the faith. You can protest that there is no God until the day you die, it will have zero impact on us. There are only the two camps in this world, those opposed to God and those who follow God. You clearly have decided which side you wish to be on.
Far out, man.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Tobin wrote:It wouldn't make any difference. If tomorrow they discovered pre-columbian horse remains, iron swords, and identified the ancient city of Zarahemla, you still wouldn't be Mormon. Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.
You need to understand the different nature of evidence. Finding horses and metallurgy during Book of Mormon times would not be evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon, but would get rid of evidence against the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Now Zarahemla I assume would be some type of evidence that clearly supports the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I would certainly consider it, but then we don't see evidence coming forth, but always more evidence against. DNA is one the newer ones, and as more research goes on especially with parts of our DNA outside of Mitochondrial or Y chromosome I wonder if it will get better or worse. If the past if anything to go on, then much worse.
Last edited by Guest on Wed May 30, 2012 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tobin wrote:Where did I state you should have faith based on feelings? I said have rock solid evidence of God and use that as the basis of your faith. Mormonism, by design, is based on a high bar of preposterous notions that do not occur everyday. For example, Joseph Smith saw God, angels, and a gold book. I would imagine any investigator of Mormonism would demand similar evidence before having faith in Joseph Smith or the book he produced, wouldn't you?
So why do no investigators see God. I don't know any members who have, but then I thought you considered LDS apostate. Did you really see God or was it just a being as you described in another post. Did it tell you the Book of Mormon was true history? How about the Book of Abraham or Joseph as God prophet.
Tobin wrote:Let me say it again Paul. I know there is a God and that is why I am a Mormon. That is really the only basis to being a Mormon Paul and it is precisely why you are not a Mormon. It is also the reason there will always be true followers of God, no matter the faith. You can protest that there is no God until the day you die, it will have zero impact on us. There are only the two camps in this world, those opposed to God and those who follow God. You clearly have decided which side you wish to be on.
I'm really not quite done. So, I'll tell you again. You do not KNOW there is a God. You believe there is a God. I know what it's like to say "I know there is a God" because I did that a lot while living the life of an active Mormon with my head up my ass. So, don't preach to me.
I oppose the god described in the Bible and Book of Mormon. He is an angry murderer with a nasty temper and a blood thirsty desire to see all things suffer. He is fantasy made up by silly prophets who wrote about what they thought God was. Fine, you go worship that bastard. Kneel before him for all I care. He will get no such pleasure from me. So you enjoy your faith while you have it.
