"don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_krose
_Emeritus
Posts: 2555
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:18 pm

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _krose »

Tobin wrote:You have yet to demonstrate that there is NO god.

Wow. You are either being deliberately obtuse, or you didn't even read the post to which you are responding. It stated specifically that no one could ever prove that there are no gods (also goes for leprechauns, angels, fairies, orcs, invisible unicorns, dragons, bigfoot, etc.).

People are free to believe in mythical creatures for the sole reason that they cannot be disproved. The inability to prove a negative provides cover for such beliefs.

I will happily demonstrate that there is no god, right after you demonstrate to me that there are no little fairies.
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Tobin »

krose wrote:
Tobin wrote:If you are unwilling to read the links I supply, is there a point to discussing this with you any further?

Wrong. I read the 12-year-old article that referenced the 15-year-old ABC poll. My favorite part was the statement that most believers have "always been believers" since birth. That doesn't indicate that much thought and reflection goes into the default belief.

I didn't read every post in the five-page "Heavenly Mother" thread that you linked. If you could point out the relevant posts, perhaps I will take a look.

But really, if you can't answer a few simple questions without handing out reading assignments, you have failed. It's a cop-out.
And what statistics or links have you supplied for your baseless assertions to date? Also, your question implies that all of a sudden, over a period of 12 years, people have stopped believing in God and that the 95% statistic is wrong. Again, more baseless assertions and implications is all I see coming from you. And your failure to go the last page (or even understand how to use search) of the thread is not my problem to solve. I'm not going to teach you how to use your web browser, browse a website, or what search is.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Tobin »

krose wrote:
Tobin wrote:You have yet to demonstrate that there is NO god.

Wow. You are either being deliberately obtuse, or you didn't even read the post to which you are responding. It stated specifically that no one could ever prove that there are no gods (also goes for leprechauns, angels, fairies, orcs, invisible unicorns, dragons, bigfoot, etc.).

People are free to believe in mythical creatures for the sole reason that they cannot be disproved. The inability to prove a negative provides cover for such beliefs.

I will happily demonstrate that there is no god, right after you demonstrate to me that there are no little fairies.

I'm not comparing a belief in God to the Earth being flat (something that can be demonstrated to be false). If you wish to claim the vast majority (as I've cited references which you either refuse to believe or read) of humanity is deluded because they believe in a God and you are unable to demonstrate that no such being exists, I have to wonder about your assertion in the first place. How can you claim people are deluded when you have nothing to back it up?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Shulem »

krose wrote:
Tobin wrote:You have yet to demonstrate that there is NO god.

Wow. You are either being deliberately obtuse, or you didn't even read the post to which you are responding. It stated specifically that no one could ever prove that there are no gods (also goes for leprechauns, angels, fairies, orcs, invisible unicorns, dragons, bigfoot, etc.).

People are free to believe in mythical creatures for the sole reason that they cannot be disproved. The inability to prove a negative provides cover for such beliefs.

I will happily demonstrate that there is no god, right after you demonstrate to me that there are no little fairies.


I assert that people who believe in leprechauns, fairies, orcs, unicorns, dragons, and bigoot are deluded. They simply don't exist. They are not here in our world among us. Neither is God. He's out fishing. I dare God to show his Goddamn face! He won't.

Paul O
_krose
_Emeritus
Posts: 2555
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:18 pm

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _krose »

Jeez, Tobin, you are arguing with yourself.

Let's return to where I entered this conversation. Here were my two points:

1. Arguments from popularity are silly and not valid. The popularity of a belief has nothing to do with its validity. To illustrate this, I mentioned some false beliefs that were and are widely held (for example, creationism). You went off on a tangent about a flat earth.

2. I don't believe your claim that 95% of the WORLD believe in God (with a capital G as you claimed). I will be convinced if you can support it, but you have provided nothing to support this claim. If you confused "the world" with "the United States," just say so. Your link to the other thread where you also failed to support the claim didn't help.

If you can defend the "95% of the planet" claim or the notion that a belief is inherently more valid because a lot of people hold it, be my guest. Go for it. But stop obfuscating.
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Kevin Graham »

You are really stretching there Kevin. Demonstrating that a claim like the earth is only 7,000 years old according to the Bible is false does not disprove the Bible, because the claim itself is suspect and may not be what the Bible teaches.


We're not talking about that easy straw man example for you to knock over, now are we.

What about Mormonism's long standing claim that Indians = Lamanites = Israelites? Science has disproved this rather easily. This means, quite simply, that not only has the Church been wrong about this point, but that it shatters a fundamental truth claim of the Church. For if Israelites never colonized the Americas, then the Book of Mormon story is bogus, and then so must be Joseph Smith, and the Church falls along with them.

There may be a number of reasons the claim may be false (or demonstrably false) which has nothing to do with the inspired nature of the text itself, but in reality can be attributed to a poor interpretation or limitation in understanding of the men who wrote the text itself.


Oh, so you think it is a good idea to say Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of the "Restoration", wasn't in a good position to properly interpret his own scripture?

How in the hell does this help your case? If we can't trust LDS prophets to interpret their own "revealed" scriptures, then why should we trust them on anything else? You know, like properly interpreting the Bible?

In any event, your claim that science cannot disprove religious claims is demonstrably false, and idiotic. Of course it can. It does it all the time.

But my favorite example of science disproving a religious claim is how the science of Egyptology disproved Joseph Smith's claim to have been able to translate Egyptian documents. The only reason he ever made this claim was because he knew no one was in a position to disprove him at the time.
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Tobin »

krose wrote:Jeez, Tobin, you are arguing with yourself.

Let's return to where I entered this conversation. Here were my two points:

1. Arguments from popularity are silly and not valid. The popularity of a belief has nothing to do with its validity. To illustrate this, I mentioned some false beliefs that were and are widely held (for example, creationism). You went off on a tangent about a flat earth.

2. I don't believe your claim that 95% of the WORLD believe in God (with a capital G as you claimed). I will be convinced if you can support it, but you have provided nothing to support this claim. If you confused "the world" with "the United States," just say so. Your link to the other thread where you also failed to support the claim didn't help.

If you can defend the "95% of the planet" claim or the notion that a belief is inherently more valid because a lot of people hold it, be my guest. Go for it. But stop obfuscating.
You are just mischaracterizing what I'm saying and not paying attention.
1. I'm dubious of the claim that 95% of human population of the planet suffers from a delusion simply because they believe in God - a belief that has yet to be demonstrated as being invalid by you.
2. If you had read the links below, you would see the numbers are between 93-97% (~ 95%) believe in a supreme being of some sort (a God in essense). And 95% of American profess such a belief. You can just ignore the references and not supply any counter examples all you want. It doesn't make your position valid in the slightest.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Tobin »

Kevin Graham wrote:What about Mormonism's long standing claim that Indians = Lamanites = Israelites? Science has disproved this rather easily. This means, quite simply, that not only has the Church been wrong about this point, but that it shatters a fundamental truth claim of the Church. For if Israelites never colonized the Americas, then the Book of Mormon story is bogus, and then so must be Joseph Smith, and the Church falls along with them.
No, what it has demonstrated is that for the populations tested (a very important distinction), the primary ancestory is Asian. The fact is a microscopic segment of population in the Americas (remember it has a population of 900million - 1 billion) were tested (demonstrating a clear bias), and not the general population of the Americas. Why? Because this science is new and not able to deal with genetic backgrounds of the population at large. For example, part of my ancestory is Native American and I wasn't tested and wouldn't have been because I appear causasian. And so this "science" does not rule out the possible ancestory of all the Native American descendants.
Kevin Graham wrote:
There may be a number of reasons the claim may be false (or demonstrably false) which has nothing to do with the inspired nature of the text itself, but in reality can be attributed to a poor interpretation or limitation in understanding of the men who wrote the text itself.
Oh, so you think it is a good idea to say Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of the "Restoration", wasn't in a good position to properly interpret his own scripture?
It was new to him like everyone else and last I checked, he was a fallible human being and was not God.
Kevin Graham wrote:How in the hell does this help your case? If we can't trust LDS prophets to interpret their own "revealed" scriptures, then why should we trust them on anything else? You know, like properly interpreting the Bible?
Why don't you do what the prophets and scriptures ask instead? Speak with God yourself and get your own answers. That is the basis of true Mormonism and always has been. You never had that testimony - a personal witness of Jesus Christ -and so you were always on your way out the door, whether you knew it or not.
Kevin Graham wrote:But my favorite example of science disproving a religious claim is how the science of Egyptology disproved Joseph Smith's claim to have been able to translate Egyptian documents. The only reason he ever made this claim was because he knew no one was in a position to disprove him at the time.
I never claimed he did translate them. That is just a misconception in modern-day Mormonism. He was show an origin story by the Lord and mistakeningly thought it was a translation of the papyrus. Remember, the Lord didn't give the papyrus to Joseph Smith and he had to ask and make his own determinations about it, which were flawed.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_krose
_Emeritus
Posts: 2555
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:18 pm

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _krose »

Tobin wrote:You are just mischaracterizing what I'm saying and not paying attention.
1. I'm dubious of the claim that 95% of human population of the planet suffers from a delusion simply because they believe in God - a belief that has yet to be demonstrated as being invalid by you.
2. If you had read the links below, you would see the numbers are between 93-97% (~ 95%) believe in a supreme being of some sort (a God in essense). And 95% of American profess such a belief. You can just ignore the references and not supply any counter examples all you want. It doesn't make your position valid in the slightest.

Oh my, there you go again, arguing with your imaginary friend. Stop claiming that I said 95% of humans suffer from delusions, and try to focus on what I've been saying, which is that a lot of people believing in something does not give it any added credibility. I have provided several examples where the majority believes something that is not true, but you ignore those.

Also, WHAT REFERENCES? I have not seen any that say what you claim. All I have seen is a link to another discussion and a link to an old Post site that only talks about US beliefs. "Links below"? Below what? Eh?

I do see where a Wikipedia list of religious adherents includes the following:

Buddhism.............................................385 million (non-theistic religion)
Chinese traditional religion...................400 million (various nature deities and spirits)
Shintoism.................................................4 million (not theistic in the western sense)
Neo-Paganism.......................................1.1 million
Nonreligious/agnostic/atheism..............1.5 billion
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Chap »

Why don't you do what the prophets and scriptures ask instead? Speak with God yourself and get your own answers. That is the basis of true Mormonism and always has been. You never had that testimony - a personal witness of Jesus Christ -and so you were always on your way out the door, whether you knew it or not.


We keep on and on getting this and similar posts from Tobin.

However, any attempt to get him to specify the nature of the experience he calls 'speaking with God' has consistently met with a refusal to discuss or make any disclosure about the experience.

Thus nobody has any idea what Tobin claims to have heard, what he claims to have seen, how and when it happened, what exactly he did to make it happen, what feature of the experience led him to believe that he was 'speaking with' the deity formerly known as Yahweh, etc..

As a result, nobody on the board has any idea how to tell whether any experience they might have is the same as Tobin's. Frankly, he would convey just as much if he was to say 'toodlepoop' instead of 'speak with God':

"Why don't you toodlepoop if you want the answer to such questions? True Mormonism has toodlepooping at its very core."
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Post Reply