Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"

[Guest]

It's a very moving account, that I acknowledge, and I hope things work out for them.

But:

“Did you know that Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old girl against her will?

The full account of this can be found in Compton's book, but to summarise:

**[several seemingly random quotes related to Helen Mar Kimball, none of which say whether or not she wanted to marry Joseph Smith]**

But let the MDB myths continue unabated.

I doubt I've been around this board enough to have generated or spread any "MDB myths," but I'll still note here that, as an answer to the question above, you've assembled a terrible summary of what is in Compton's book. In fact, it's so bad that I'm having a hard time believing that you have any interest in setting anybody straight with "the truth" about it.

Here are some excerpts from the same book that are actually on-point:

As in the case of Sara Whitney, Joseph gave [Helen, the Kimball family's] teenage daughter responsibility not only for her own salvation but for that of her whole family. Thus Helen's acceptance of a union that was not intrinsically attractive to her was an act of youthful sacrifice and heroism.
***
Helen's reminiscence includes a poem that gives valuable insight into her feelings at the time. Unlike Eliza R. Snow, who looked upon the marriage to Joseph Smith as the spiritual zenith of her life, Helen, much younger, saw it as limiting her freedom and isolating her from her friends.
***
So apparently Helen had expected her marriage to Joseph Smith to be for eternity only, then discovered that it included time also. These lines [of the quoted poem] paint a bleak picture of Helen's mental state in the months after the wedding. A "sicken'd heart" broods; she is a "fetter'd bird with wild and longing heart" who pines for freedom every day. She must have been attracted to boys her own age, as would be normal. She certainly was already paying attention to Horace Whitney [whom she later married, willingly, in 1846]. The marriage to Smith coming so suddenly and blocking these growing feelings must have been devastating to her. These lines are the first evidence of depression in Helen Mar's life.
***
[Helen's father] Heber left Nauvoo on a mission to the eastern states [less than a month following Helen's marriage to Joseph] in early June 1843. A month later a letter he wrote to Helen shows that he was worried about her mental state as she entered into the role of polygamous wife. He counseled her to accept the marriage obediently and keep it a secret...Possibly Helen was having moments of open rebellion. Certainly she was seriously depressed.
***
She [Helen] was apparently coming to realize that her secret marriage to Joseph entailed time as well as eternity. A severe depression ensued--she felt that her life's happiness had ended completely--and she "brooded over the sad memories of sweet departed joys and all manner of future woes."

Clearly, Helen's father (whether out of ignorance or conscious treachery -- it's unclear) and Joseph Smith coerced her to marry Joseph under false pretenses (i.e., that it was "for eternity only"). Coercion, by definition, does not enable acts of free will, but assuming that somehow Helen wasn't successfully coerced, which I believe is the "truth" you are trying to enlighten us with, I suppose that we could maybe take from Compton's analysis the idea that Helen "willingly" (at least as willingly as a 14 year-old girl, not yet legally competent to sign a contract, could have been -- i.e., virtually not-at-all, in my opinion) married Joseph "for eternity only", as a distant, or even merely theoretical, union in the afterlife.

As soon as Helen went through with the ceremony, however, she became the victim of a bait-and-switch, as Joseph began insisting that contrary to what she agreed to, she was now his actual earthly polygamous wife, and as such she would be isolated socially from her peer group. It is ridiculous for you, Ray, to imply that Compton's book says Helen willingly agreed to the marriage arrangement that Joseph eventually imposed on her.

The author of this blog post came to a realization, after a lifetime in the LDS Church hearing (and wrongfully trusting) people like you mischaracterizing the known facts in the service of Joseph Smith's legacy, that she had been misled to believe that Joseph Smith's behavior in this regard was virtuous and essentially different somehow from the behavior of Warren Jeffs. This deception, which she seems to attribute to the Church itself, is part of what made it so hard for her to support her husband's changing beliefs (and underwear!), and caused her to write this blog post.

Thanks, I guess, for helping to illustrate part of the author's struggle.

-JV

[_DrW]

Although I live in a Muslim country and have studied some regarding the Arabs, Islam and their histories, I am unaware of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ever having been accused of being a pedophile, or indeed that there is any evidence that he could be considered as one.

Do some reading up on Muhammad's critics. I can't believe you're that ignorant.

I am no defender of Islam. It is a too much like Mormonism. So if you have credible references as to the Prophet's behavior that would enlighten me on the subject, please provide them. They may well be blocked here, but hey, I will give it a shot.

[_DrW]

I doubt I've been around this board enough to have generated or spread any "MDB myths," but I'll still note here that, as an answer to the question above, you've assembled a terrible summary of what is in Compton's book. In fact, it's so bad that I'm having a hard time believing that you have any interest in setting anybody straight with "the truth" about it.

Here are some excerpts from the same book that are actually on-point:

As in the case of Sara Whitney, Joseph gave [Helen, the Kimball family's] teenage daughter responsibility not only for her own salvation but for that of her whole family. Thus Helen's acceptance of a union that was not intrinsically attractive to her was an act of youthful sacrifice and heroism.
***
Helen's reminiscence includes a poem that gives valuable insight into her feelings at the time. Unlike Eliza R. Snow, who looked upon the marriage to Joseph Smith as the spiritual zenith of her life, Helen, much younger, saw it as limiting her freedom and isolating her from her friends.
***
So apparently Helen had expected her marriage to Joseph Smith to be for eternity only, then discovered that it included time also. These lines [of the quoted poem] paint a bleak picture of Helen's mental state in the months after the wedding. A "sicken'd heart" broods; she is a "fetter'd bird with wild and longing heart" who pines for freedom every day. She must have been attracted to boys her own age, as would be normal. She certainly was already paying attention to Horace Whitney [whom she later married, willingly, in 1846]. The marriage to Smith coming so suddenly and blocking these growing feelings must have been devastating to her. These lines are the first evidence of depression in Helen Mar's life.
***
[Helen's father] Heber left Nauvoo on a mission to the eastern states [less than a month following Helen's marriage to Joseph] in early June 1843. A month later a letter he wrote to Helen shows that he was worried about her mental state as she entered into the role of polygamous wife. He counseled her to accept the marriage obediently and keep it a secret...Possibly Helen was having moments of open rebellion. Certainly she was seriously depressed.
***
She [Helen] was apparently coming to realize that her secret marriage to Joseph entailed time as well as eternity. A severe depression ensued--she felt that her life's happiness had ended completely--and she "brooded over the sad memories of sweet departed joys and all manner of future woes."

Clearly, Helen's father (whether out of ignorance or conscious treachery -- it's unclear) and Joseph Smith coerced her to marry Joseph under false pretenses (i.e., that it was "for eternity only"). Coercion, by definition, does not enable acts of free will, but assuming that somehow Helen wasn't successfully coerced, which I believe is the "truth" you are trying to enlighten us with, I suppose that we could maybe take from Compton's analysis the idea that Helen "willingly" (at least as willingly as a 14 year-old girl, not yet legally competent to sign a contract, could have been -- i.e., virtually not-at-all, in my opinion) married Joseph "for eternity only", as a distant, or even merely theoretical, union in the afterlife.

As soon as Helen went through with the ceremony, however, she became the victim of a bait-and-switch, as Joseph began insisting that contrary to what she agreed to, she was now his actual earthly polygamous wife, and as such she would be isolated socially from her peer group. It is ridiculous for you, Ray, to imply that Compton's book says Helen willingly agreed to the marriage arrangement that Joseph eventually imposed on her.

The author of this blog post came to a realization, after a lifetime in the LDS Church hearing (and wrongfully trusting) people like you mischaracterizing the known facts in the service of Joseph Smith's legacy, that she had been misled to believe that Joseph Smith's behavior in this regard was virtuous and essentially different somehow from the behavior of Warren Jeffs. This deception, which she seems to attribute to the Church itself, is part of what made it so hard for her to support her husband's changing beliefs (and underwear!), and caused her to write this blog post.

Thanks, I guess, for helping to illustrate part of the author's struggle.

-JV

A bump for a great post.
Well done.
Thanks.

[_RayAgostini]

It is ridiculous for you, Ray, to imply that Compton's book says Helen willingly agreed to the marriage arrangement that Joseph eventually imposed on her.

The author of this blog post came to a realization, after a lifetime in the LDS Church hearing (and wrongfully trusting) people like you mischaracterizing the known facts in the service of Joseph Smith's legacy, that she had been misled to believe that Joseph Smith's behavior in this regard was virtuous and essentially different somehow from the behavior of Warren Jeffs.

You're comparing Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? WOW! Is all I can say.

Have you read Compton's book? You don't need to quote me excerpts, because I have his book right before me now in my hands, chapter 22, page 486, "Polygamy, Melancholy, Possession".

Shall I scan and post it? Would you like to receive it by email? I don't need "excerpts", because I have the whole book right here at my hand.

Let me know what suits you.

[_DrW]

You're comparing Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? WOW! Is all I can say.

So, in what significant way was Warren Jeffs' behavior regarding the taking of multiple wives and having sex with underaged girls different from that of Joseph Smith?

Most people outside the LDS Church who think about this at all will understand that Jeffs was only doing exactly what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught (by example) in this regard.

[_RayAgostini]

So, in what significant way was Warren Jeffs' behavior regarding the taking of multiple wives and having sex with underaged girls different from that of Joseph Smith?

Most people outside the LDS Church who think about this at all will understand that Jeffs was only doing exactly what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught (by example) in this regard.

Have you read Compton's In Sacred Loneliness? If you haven't, then read it, and then write your own essay comparisons to Warren Jeffs.

Good luck. Compton still remains a believer.

An Interview with Todd Compton.

I think any two competent and intelligent scholars (and human beings) will look at any subject somewhat differently. This is both a maddening thing and an enriching thing. There are so many factors: focus of evidence collecting, focus of research, educational interests. There is also, in Mormon studies, Mormon and non-Mormon bias, and within Mormonism, liberal and conservative bias. An honest scholar and writer does not just give himself up to his or her bias; he or she actually strives to rein it in, and thinks about dialoguing with the “other side.” One of the ways you do that is present evidence in a reliable way, so it convinces not just “your side” but the “other side” too. (By the way I would call myself basically a liberal Mormon whose heroes are people like Leonard Arrington and Lowell Bennion.)

Yet Juggler Vain would have us believe that Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith are "indistinguishable". LOL.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I am no defender of Islam. It is a too much like Mormonism. So if you have credible references as to the Prophet's behavior that would enlighten me on the subject, please provide them. They may well be blocked here, but hey, I will give it a shot.

"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Bukhari 7.62.88

The widespread prevalence of child marriage in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been documented by human rights groups. Saudi clerics have justified the marriage of girls as young as 9, with sanction from the judiciary. There are laws defining the minimum age in Saudi Arabia as young as eight years.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-17/worl ... s=PM:WORLD

The kingdom's top cleric saying that it's OK for girls as young as 10 to wed.

----------

Dr. W,

You DO have GOOGLE, don't you? To post such intentionally ignorant things on a message board is astounding.

- VRDRC

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Although I live in a Muslim country and have studied some regarding the Arabs, Islam and their histories, I am unaware of the Prophet Muhammad (toadyism removed) ever having been accused of being a pedophile, or indeed that there is any evidence that he could be considered as one.

Article 1041 of the Civil Code of the Islamic Republic of Iran states that girls can be engaged before the age of nine, and married at nine: "Marriage before puberty (nine full lunar years for girls) is prohibited. Marriage contracted before reaching puberty with the permission of the guardian is valid provided that the interests of the ward are duly observed."

The Ayatollah Khomeini himself married a ten-year-old girl when he was twenty-eight.

In Islam, Muhammad is the supreme example of conduct (cf. Qur'an 33:21). "The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Bukhari 7.62.88

It's probably best for you to stay focused on Joseph Smith and whether or not he had intercourse with a 14 year-old because the record of Muhammed and the resultant impact it had on women is devastating, and devastatingly documented.

- VRDRC

[Guest]

I am no defender of Islam. It is a too much like Mormonism. So if you have credible references as to the Prophet's behavior that would enlighten me on the subject, please provide them. They may well be blocked here, but hey, I will give it a shot.

"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Bukhari 7.62.88

The widespread prevalence of child marriage in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been documented by human rights groups. Saudi clerics have justified the marriage of girls as young as 9, with sanction from the judiciary. There are laws defining the minimum age in Saudi Arabia as young as eight years.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-17/worl ... s=PM:WORLD

The kingdom's top cleric saying that it's OK for girls as young as 10 to wed.

----------

Dr. W,

You DO have GOOGLE, don't you? To post such intentionally ignorant things on a message board is astounding.

- VRDRC

Doctor CamNC4Me,

Thanks for your quote. It shows that I had an false belief and and did not look hard enough for contrary evidence.

[_RayAgostini]

I do have Google. I am also living in a Muslim country where websites that defame the Prophet or Islam are blocked.

If you don't mind me asking, what country is this, and what has been your experience with Muslims?