SteelHead wrote:Was that said sarcastically? As everything you do on this board is in response to MDB apostates.
Responding doesn't mean I take them seriously.
Reading here just reminds me of Goethe's saying that:
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action."
And it exists here in spades.
Worthy of some kind of "experimentation" as to why people who leave a religion, can still be so obsessed with it, and proving it wrong.
I think it's called "self-justification".
I see it as a much needed community service. I, for one, would hate to see someone else duped into joining the LDS Church because of its policy of non-disclosure.
I see my job here as keeping the facts out front so that if any of the average 40 - 60 guests who are on the board at any given time are investigating the Church, they will at least have some accurate information about its history and behaviors as an organization - information that would have been withheld by the missionaries or others who are "teaching" them.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
"Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me." Brigham arose and said, "Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize."
(As recalled by Parley P. Pratt in MS 55 (September 4, 1893): 585.)
Wow. What a drama queen.
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Wow. I think Ray A completely missed the point of that article. Most people are bothered by 38 year old "prophets" taking a 14-year old follower as his wife. You are fine with it, but understand it bothers most people. You believe she was a happy participant, the author believes she was forced against her will. Do you really think that the author leaving the church hinged on this? If she could have been convinced that Helen Mar wasn't forced against her will, she was simply talked into it that that would have made everything OK? The author also mentions the Book of Abraham, so Helen Mar Kimball was one issue. There are 33 other polygamy examples, some far uglier than Helen Mar Kimball.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
Well, I think we can infer Ray A doesn't have a problem with a 38 year-old man marrying a 14 year-old girl.
- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood. 22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree. 23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost. 24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree. 25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed. 26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth. 27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit. 28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (1 Ne.8)
Oh Goody, Reference to the Mormon 1.2 Billion Dollar Conference Center
DrW wrote: The record clearly and unequivocally shows that Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man, liar, fraud, polygamist, adulterer, and sexual predator.
The record shows that you are clearly biased. Richard Bushman, as one example, reached a very different conclusion.
I wonder why that might be?
As Jan Shipps said, he never follows anything to it's logical conclusion.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
RayAgostini wrote:Where was Helen Mar "forced" to do anything?
It's too late on this side of the earth for me to dig it out, but check out what Helen wrote was her reaction to the union. She was none too happy.
You also might want to think about why US Suffragists worked so hard during Joseph Smith's lifetime to raise the age at which at a youth could consent to sexual intercourse. They could see that the common law age of 12 was just to young. Thanks to their efforts, the law here is in the range of 16-18. A much more justifable position.
Now, so neither one of us commits the sin of presentism, why did Joseph Smith not join the Suffragists in working to get the age of consent raised?
So here you have a 14 year old girl, who it turns out was not happy with what happened, during a time when many women, who had the best interest of girls at heart, thought that a 14 year old could not possibly be in a position to consent to sexual intercourse.
Is that force?
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
lulu wrote: You also might want to think about why US Suffragists worked so hard during Joseph Smith's lifetime to raise the age at which at a youth could consent to sexual intercourse. They could see that the common law age of 12 was just to young. Thanks to their efforts, the law here is in the range of 16-18. A much more justifable position.
Now, so neither one of us commits the sin of presentism, why did Joseph Smith not join the Suffragists in working to get the age of consent raised?
I new this had no basis in fact as soon as I read it. I wish I did have a good word for you BS.
"It was a tiny ad placed in an obscure newspaper. The Seneca County Courier, a weekly paper delivered to farms in the cold country where New York State meets Canada, ran just three sentences in its edition for July 14, 1848. The simple announcement invited women to a discussion of "the social, civil, and religious rights of women."
Opening of A History of the American Suffragist Movement