"don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

[_Tobin]

Yes, I'm well aware of the work people have put into it and it has established exactly what you expect:

No Tobin it was not what I expected or wanted. It was just reality that Joseph was making it up. God wasn't involved. God would have to be an idiot to give Joseph revelation attaching to specific hieroglyphs over a period of years. The catalyst theory is just for those who cannot accept the fact Joseph was making it up like yourself. People who will not reevaluate their spiritual experiences of feelings, emotions, hallucinations, etc because they are convinced their interpretations must be true. You even admit others do interpret their experiences based on different perspectives and backgrounds.

Now you are imposing your own views of the fraility and failings of another human being, Joseph Smith, and using that the judge God. Your expectations of perfection or they types of knowledge Joseph Smith would possess in this case is not necessarily correct or justified. And the truth of Mormonism has never been founded on it. As I've repeatedly told you, true Mormonism is based on a personal witness from Jesus Christ. Not on the word or performance of any man, including Joseph Smith.

[_Shulem]

If Tobin will just say to himself that the text and story of the Book of Abraham is something that PERHAPS Joseph Smith really did make up then there is a chance he can go from there. If Tobin will consider the results of the text of the story of the Book of Abraham to be on par with that of the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 then he can start to open his eyes and say, "MAYBE JOSEPH LIED". Tobin needs to realize that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 were just as important and true to Joseph Smith as the story itself. Joseph Smith proudly published all of his creations as a single presentation of his so-called inspired works.

If Tobin wants to keep his head in the sand it will continue to remain dead. Pull the head out and wake up!

Paul O

[_Tobin]

If Tobin will just say to himself that the text and story of the Book of Abraham is something that PERHAPS Joseph Smith really did make up then there is a chance he can go from there. If Tobin will consider the results of the text of the story of the Book of Abraham to be on par with that of the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 then he can start to open his eyes and say, "MAYBE JOSEPH LIED". Tobin needs to realize that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 were just as important and true to Joseph Smith as the story itself. Joseph Smith proudly published all of his creations as a single presentation of his so-called inspired works.

If Tobin wants to keep his head in the sand it will continue to remain dead. Pull the head out and wake up!

Paul O

Paul, I've always maintained that. Unless you receive a witness from God that Mormonism is true, you don't have to dig very far to establish he made it up or it is a fraud. People just don't see God, angels, and have Gold books land in their lap. Mormonism is only true if you receive a witness from Jesus Christ (valid enough that you are convinced) that it is not that. Otherwise, there is simply no reason to believe it because things like that do not happen in the course of a normal day for anyone.

[_Drifting]

If Tobin will just say to himself that the text and story of the Book of Abraham is something that PERHAPS Joseph Smith really did make up then there is a chance he can go from there. If Tobin will consider the results of the text of the story of the Book of Abraham to be on par with that of the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 then he can start to open his eyes and say, "MAYBE JOSEPH LIED". Tobin needs to realize that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 were just as important and true to Joseph Smith as the story itself. Joseph Smith proudly published all of his creations as a single presentation of his so-called inspired works.

If Tobin wants to keep his head in the sand it will continue to remain dead. Pull the head out and wake up!

Paul O

Facsimilie 3 is part of the Church's scriptural canon.
It's inescapable to include it as one and the same as the Book's translation. If Smith got one thing demonstrably wrong then you have to accept the possibility exists that he got other things wrong too.

[_Shulem]

Facsimilie 3 is part of the Church's scriptural canon.
It's inescapable to include it as one and the same as the Book's translation. If Smith got one thing demonstrably wrong then you have to accept the possibility exists that he got other things wrong too.

Yes, and Joseph Smith published the entire works in the Times & Seasons -- offering it to the world as a revelation from the prophet, seer, and translator of Mormonism. The translations of Facsimile No. 3 have been positively proven wrong, everyone agrees on that. The problem is that Tobin still feels the story (text) is inspired and given from God notwithstanding the false Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 which Joseph received from the same inspired source claiming so with authority (see bottom of Explanations). Tobin could just as well say that the even chapters of the story are really true but the odd chapters are not. That is about as logical as his position is.

And then there is the golden plates and the Book of Mormon, more stuff made up by Joseph . . . .

Paul O

[_Chap]

If Tobin will just say to himself that the text and story of the Book of Abraham is something that PERHAPS Joseph Smith really did make up then there is a chance he can go from there. If Tobin will consider the results of the text of the story of the Book of Abraham to be on par with that of the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 then he can start to open his eyes and say, "MAYBE JOSEPH LIED". Tobin needs to realize that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 were just as important and true to Joseph Smith as the story itself. Joseph Smith proudly published all of his creations as a single presentation of his so-called inspired works.

If Tobin wants to keep his head in the sand it will continue to remain dead. Pull the head out and wake up!

Paul O

Facsimilie 3 is part of the Church's scriptural canon.
It's inescapable to include it as one and the same as the Book's translation. If Smith got one thing demonstrably wrong then you have to accept the possibility exists that he got other things wrong too.

That's the beauty of Facsimile 3.

Thanks to Joseph Smith having published it in Times and Seasons, the journal he edited, we can see this ancient Egyptian scene and the writing that forms part of it quite clearly enough for modern Egyptologists to translate it all, and recognize the picture for the very common 'presentation of the dead to Osiris' scene that it is.

With the facsimile, Joseph Smith produced and published an explanation of the scene and purported translation of some of the text that is completely wrong. No wiggle room at all (though Nibley made a desperate attempt to find some).

That is the end of the catalyst theory really: it is so clear that Smith really was trying to fake a translation of the text in front of him, and getting it completely wrong. End of the catalyst theory, the 'lost scroll' theory, the lot. Book of Abraham? Reckless fake, or crazy delusion. I'd go with the first, given the rest of Smith's career.

Even a deity couldn't find a logical way out of that, so there is no point asking one to try.

[Edited to add: I see that St Paul Osborne just said about the same thing]

[_Tobin]

Facsimilie 3 is part of the Church's scriptural canon. It's inescapable to include it as one and the same as the Book's translation. If Smith got one thing demonstrably wrong then you have to accept the possibility exists that he got other things wrong too.

And I'll repeat, that is just garbage. Facsimile 3 is merely Joseph Smith's conjecture and has nothing to do with the Book of Abraham or the Book of Mormon or whether or not Joseph Smith received divine guidance. It only shows he didn't know Egyptian hieroglyphics, which should be a given. Critics are making hay by pointing out the obvious and the mistaken belief in some quarters of the LDS Church that Joseph Smith did know Egyptian hieroglyphics. Eventually, the Church and those that believe that will have to recognize he did not and realize the Book of Abraham has nothing to do with the papyrus or the facsimiles.

[_Stormy Waters]

So Joesph Smith completely mistranslated something that we can verify, but we should believe that he correctly translated something that we can't verify.

[_Shulem]

That's the beauty of Facsimile 3.

Elder Holland in his BBC interview stated clearly that he himself can't read any Egyptian and doesn't undrestand the vehicle in which Joseph translated the Book of Abraham. He was utterly trapped and confused in his response and then uttered:

"What got translated got translated into the word of God".

There you have it, from a prophet, seer, revelator, and translator of Mormonism. Joseph Smith translated Facsimile No. 3 into the word of God and the hell with Egyptologists and science.

Holland doesn't understand the vehicle but claims it's a divine translation. I say he is a Goddamn liar or a complete do-do -- or both.

Paul O

[_Tobin]

So Joesph Smith completely mistranslated something that we can verify, but we should believe that he correctly translated something that we can't verify.

You can verify it. God just needs to show up and tell you it is true. Without that witness, there is no reason to believe any of it starting with the Joseph Smith story about seeing God, angels and having Gold books. You don't even need to get to the Book of Abraham.