sethpayne wrote: by the way -- I notice that the mods deleted the post that called John Dehlin a murderer. I'm usually not one for deleting posts but I think this was a good call.
Seth,
One of the items leaked about Gregory's article on John was the two missionaries who drowned in a lake(?) and Gregory some how decided that John has power over earth and sea and was responsible for the deaths.
Is this what the poster was writing about?
Holy crap .... If what you say about Greg's piece is true that is truly despicable.
The post I am referring to was, at least I am hoping, an intentional joke to show the absurdity of the statement "causing someone to lose faith is the same as killing them" which has been expressed a few times in the thread.
This called John out and said how awful it was that John was leading so many people away. Then the final line was something to the effect: "Anyone who leads members (or the flock..??) away is a murderer.
Like I said I strongly suspect that this was not a real post but rather, an attempt to show the absurdity of the whole discussion.
One of the items leaked about Gregory's article on John was the two missionaries who drowned in a lake(?) and Gregory some how decided that John has power over earth and sea and was responsible for the deaths.
Is this what the poster was writing about?
I have it on good authority that this is not included in Smith's article.
sethpayne wrote: I'll use hyperbole but what if I were Catholic and started encouraging other Catholics to begin worshipping at a statue of Mohammed? I could be the nicest guy in the world but my exhortations aren't going to fly.
I would advocate avoiding hyperbole and seek a closer example, like adding Mary to the Godhead. After all, Mother in Heaven already receives hymns of praise in "O, My Father." So it is not as if She were completely foreign to LDS theology.
The simple fact is that the sexism of the 19th century persists. Mormons aren't alone in that.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
sethpayne wrote: I'll use hyperbole but what if I were Catholic and started encouraging other Catholics to begin worshipping at a statue of Mohammed? I could be the nicest guy in the world but my exhortations aren't going to fly.
I would advocate avoiding hyperbole and seek a closer example, like adding Mary to the Godhead. After all, Mother in Heaven already receives hymns of praise in "O, My Father." So it is not as if She were completely foreign to LDS theology.
The simple fact is that the sexism of the 19th century persists. Mormons aren't alone in that.
Very good points, Kishkumen. I think one of the issues is that yes, while HM is part of the Mormon conciousness, it remains so ill-defined and ethereal that any attempt to integrate the concept into a systematic theology is frightening because it would require true modern revelation in order to bring any clarity to the matter.
In many respects the Church of the 19th century was quite progressive in regard to women. Women held the priesthood, gave blessings to their children, were included in the Annointed Quorum, etc... Unfortunatly, as part of the Americanization of the Church, he place of women has reverted to 19th century puritanism.
sethpayne wrote:In many respects the Church of the 19th century was quite progressive in regard to women. Women held the priesthood, gave blessings to their children, were included in the Annointed Quorum, etc... Unfortunatly, as part of the Americanization of the Church, he place of women has reverted to 19th century puritanism.
Very true. I think it was in the 70s that they cracked down on women giving blessings and prayer circles outside of the temple.
They have made the LDS Church progressively more boring and corporate over the years. Sucked the marrow out of the entire thing.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
sethpayne wrote:In many respects the Church of the 19th century was quite progressive in regard to women. Women held the priesthood, gave blessings to their children, were included in the Annointed Quorum, etc... Unfortunatly, as part of the Americanization of the Church, he place of women has reverted to 19th century puritanism.
Very true. I think it was in the 70s that they cracked down on women giving blessings and prayer circles outside of the temple. They have made the LDS Church progressively more boring and corporate over the years. Sucked the marrow out of the entire thing.
I don't think the Church is in as much control over that as they think. In our family all babies are blessed and named at home - women are invited in the circle as are members of the family that are not members of the Church. The Bishop is allowed to attend, but he knows if he causes any trouble - he'll be invited to leave too.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I don't think the Church is in as much control over that as they think. In our family all babies are blessed and named at home - women are invited in the circle as are members of the family that are not members of the Church. The Bishop is allowed to attend, but he knows if he causes any trouble - he'll be invited to leave too.
Impressive! I admire that kind of courage and conviction.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
My belief is that the Church if not outright regrets Sept. 6, it has serious misgivings given that there was really nothing gained in trade for the bad publicity. There wasn't even a hope of gaining much. That must have been the best day of the Mopologists' lives, but unfortunately for them, it probably won't be repeated. The online witch hunt will not result in trials held by church leaders, only exposes on blogs and published articles from the MI and FAIR.
Gadianton wrote:My belief is that the Church if not outright regrets Sept. 6, it has serious misgivings given that there was really nothing gained in trade for the bad publicity. There wasn't even a hope of gaining much. That must have been the best day of the Mopologists' lives, but unfortunately for them, it probably won't be repeated. The online witch hunt will not result in trials held by church leaders, only exposes on blogs and published articles from the MI and FAIR.
The internet has really changed so much for the LDS Church. If there were any modern invention that they might be tempted to attribute to the machinations of Satan, I bet the internet would be it.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist