Shocked by Polygamy

[_Tobin]

Schooled by you? Not unless you are teaching clown lessons.
You are taking one ambiguous statement - something she said as she was dying - and creating your special theory out of it when there are clearly other reasons she would make that statement. Also, she had a rocky relationship with Ezekiel Clark and left him, so there were a lot of difficulties at play with that part of her family. And I'll say it again, we don't know what she thought of the status of the remaining children. Maybe she did consider them sealed to the prophet as well? Let's ask them. In fact, let's clear up this whole ambiguous statement and ask Sylvia what she meant. Oh no, she's dead and so are they.

You got caught. You are also the one making assertions about what she meant that are not the most reasonable, so you need to provide evidence to make your assertions more likely. The problem is you don't have anything as has been evident when this issue has come up. We have provided some other evidence like Zina, and Sylvia having other children and didn't call them to her bed. I believe at least one other child(a daughter) was living in Utah at the time. So now your assertion is even less likely and not reasonable. It is based on what you want to believe about Joseph and that is it. I am not saying I am right in any absolute way, but it is the reasonable interpretation and not the unreasonable one that is not very likely, but you are free to believe what ever you want.

First, you accuse me of deception. Yet, all the facts were present in my statements. Then you accuse me of not understanding the evidence. What evidence? You have one AMBIGUOUS statement. I don't know what Sylvia's views were on the sealing and the other children. Do you? Did she or did she not consider them sealed to Joseph Smith. Maybe she did. Then you have a real problem Themis because now we have 4 children she thought were children of the prophet. Three of whom he physically could not have conceived.

[_Themis]

First, you accuse me of deception.

I think you were, at least a little.

Yet, all the facts were present in my statements.

If they were then I wouldn't have had to bring it up. I was fairly certain she had, but I was willing to say I was wrong, but I looked and confirmed that she had.

Then you accuse me of not understanding the evidence.

That wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last, but I know others do as well with you.

What evidence? You have one AMBIGUOUS statement.

It's right in my post. Zina and Sylvia's other children. This is the issue you tried to suggest she only viewed one child as sealed to Joseph( and possibly tried to suggest she only had one living child) yet I think you knew you had no evidence for this assertion.

I don't know what Sylvia's views were on the sealing and the other children. Do you?

You made a statement of fact that she did view it a certain way. I only bring up that she has no reason to exclude other children from being sealed to Joseph, especially if she never had sex with Joseph. Again you want to believe something other then the common interpretation from a statement like this and cannot provide any evidence to make it more likely and ignore evidence brought it that makes the common interpretation more likely. Start dealing with that if you want to have a real discussion about the issue.

Did she or did she not consider them sealed to Joseph Smith. Maybe she did. Then you have a real problem Themis because now we have 4 children she thought were children of the prophet. Three of whom he physically could not have conceived.

This is your problem. She called Josephine to her bed at a time she knew her days were numbered. If she thought they were all sealed to Joseph then it would be reasonable that she would tell them all, and would not single out one child not only by having her at her bed for this confession, but would have told Josephine that all her children were Joseph's. It may not be impossible, but your assertion really does not make sense.

“Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”

An interesting question here would be if her children knew prior to her statement to Josephine that she had been married to Joseph Smith. I don't know but I suspect they may have since polygamy was public including Joseph's. The evidence we have would have had to exist back then as well.

[_Themis]

Because all the other Lyon children (the ones she considered sealed to Joseph Smith) were maybe, mmmm - wait for it - DEAD!!!! at the time.

Lets poke another hole in Tobin's sinking ship. Why would she consider Josephine to be sealed to Joseph and not the other children whose father was, I believe, never a member of the church, so they would not be sealed to him.

by the way here is as good article

http://www.crlayton.com/familyweb/HALES-final.pdf

[_Tobin]

Because all the other Lyon children (the ones she considered sealed to Joseph Smith) were maybe, mmmm - wait for it - DEAD!!!! at the time.

Lets poke another hole in Tobin's sinking ship. Why would she consider Josephine to be sealed to Joseph and not the other children whose father was, I believe, never a member of the church, so they would not be sealed to him.
by the way here is as good article
http://www.crlayton.com/familyweb/HALES-final.pdf

Themis, again showing complete lack of scruples. I said I did not know what she considered about the matter in regards to the other children since there is no recorded statement from the other children about it. If she did consider them children of the prophet by sealing, this only goes towards my point. Not yours.

[_Tobin]

What evidence? You have one AMBIGUOUS statement.

It's right in my post. Zina and Sylvia's other children. This is the issue you tried to suggest she only viewed one child as sealed to Joseph( and possibly tried to suggest she only had one living child) yet I think you knew you had no evidence for this assertion.

You really like to have it both ways now don't you? Let's suppose she did consider the other children sealed to Joseph Smith, then the SAME statement applies to them. It is a completely ridiculous assertion to state it only applies to one child based on one ambiguous statement made to that child, when it may also apply to all the surviving children in her opinion.

You made a statement of fact that she did view it a certain way. I only bring up that she has no reason to exclude other children from being sealed to Joseph, especially if she never had sex with Joseph. Again you want to believe something other then the common interpretation from a statement like this and cannot provide any evidence to make it more likely and ignore evidence brought it that makes the common interpretation more likely. Start dealing with that if you want to have a real discussion about the issue.

Yes, I stated she considered the Lyon children sealed to the prophet from her statement to Josephine. Since we don't have statements from the other children, there was no reason to bring them up because they don't help nor hurt the case. We just don't know what she thought regarding them.

Did she or did she not consider them sealed to Joseph Smith. Maybe she did. Then you have a real problem Themis because now we have 4 children she thought were children of the prophet. Three of whom he physically could not have conceived.

This is your problem. She called Josephine to her bed at a time she knew her days were numbered. If she thought they were all sealed to Joseph then it would be reasonable that she would tell them all, and would not single out one child not only by having her at her bed for this confession, but would have told Josephine that all her children were Joseph's. It may not be impossible, but your assertion really does not make sense.

“Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”

An interesting question here would be if her children knew prior to her statement to Josephine that she had been married to Joseph Smith. I don't know but I suspect they may have since polygamy was public including Joseph's. The evidence we have would have had to exist back then as well.

It's not a problem. We don't know if she said that to all the children (especially IF she considered them all sealed to the prophet), or Josephine because she was a favorite child, or maybe she didn't consider the other children sealed to the prophet or what? Again, we are back to ONE AMBIGUOUS statement. No proof one way or the other.

[_Themis]

You really like to have it both ways now don't you? Let's suppose she did consider the other children sealed to Joseph Smith, then the SAME statement applies to them. It is a completely ridiculous assertion to state it only applies to one child based on one ambiguous statement made to that child, when it may also apply to all the surviving children in her opinion.

How dumb can someone be to accuse me of what they did. I don't have it both ways since I just go with the only reasonable interpretation of her statement which is that Josephine is the biological daughter of Joseph. You are the one going through a bunch of mental hoops to make it into something else.

Yes, I stated she considered the Lyon children sealed to the prophet from her statement to Josephine. Since we don't have statements from the other children, there was no reason to bring them up because they don't help nor hurt the case. We just don't know what she thought regarding them.

Yet that was never what she said to her. We shouldn't expect statements from the other children since they cannot be Joseph's biological children. Her other daughter lived in Utah, and Sylvia didn't die suddenly. Josephine provided an affidavit many years later. It seems she interpreted as being the biological daughter of Joseph. Why even sign an affidavit if she thought it meant sealed to Joseph. They all would be sealed to Joseph. BY considered Zina's children all sealed to Joseph.

It's not a problem. We don't know if she said that to all the children (especially IF she considered them all sealed to the prophet), or Josephine because she was a favorite child, or maybe she didn't consider the other children sealed to the prophet or what? Again, we are back to ONE AMBIGUOUS statement. No proof one way or the other.

Why even create an affidavit then. If she thought they all were sealed why not reveal it much earlier since it would not be a big deal. Why did she not say this to others. Why did she name her daughter Josephine. You got a whole bunch of problems.

Here are some other interesting information

Todd Compton asserted that Joseph Smith practiced sexual polyandry with Sylvia Sessions Lyon (see In Sacred Loneliness, 178-86). Sylvia's daughter, Josephine Rosetta Lyon, signed the following statement in 1915:

Just prior to my mother’s death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on earth were about numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith... [23]

All researchers do not agree this statement clearly declares Josephine to be the biological daughter of the Prophet.[24] It is true that words reflect some ambiguity and could possibly be interpreted to mean that Josephine was to be Joseph Smith’s daughter only in eternity, without implying an actual paternal physical connection.[25] However, other details support that Sylvia was the literal offspring of the Prophet. For example, if no biological connection existed between Josephine and Joseph Smith, it is strange that Sylvia would dramatically wait until her deathbed to divulge to her that the Prophet was her father only in eternity. If Josephine “was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith” only because of a sealing ordinance, rather than through physical siring, all of Sylvia’s children would be equally his offspring. However, none of them reported any similar divulgences from their dying mother, nor would there be any compelling reason to keep such knowledge secret.[26] Josephine’s name also supports the relationship.

In addition, other sources, beyond the 1915 affidavit, corroborate the story. In 1886, future BYU president George H. Brimhall recorded: “Went to Spanish Fork… Evening had a talk with Father Hales, who told me that it was said that Joseph Smith had a daughter named Josephine living in Bountiful, Utah… Soon the contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph will be all gone.”[27] The Hales and Fisher families both emigrated from Kent, England and may have known each other prior to their arrival in the United States. In 1905, Stake President Angus Cannon had an interview with Joseph Smith III, wherein he stated:

I will now refer you to one case where it was said by the girl’s grandmother that your father has a daughter born of a plural wife. The girl’s grandmother was Mother Sessions, who lived in Nauvoo and died here in the valley. She was the grand-daughter of Mother Sessions. That girl, I believe, is living today in Bountiful, north of this city. I heard Prest. Young, a short time before his death, refer to the report and remark that he had never seen the girl, but he would like to see her for himself, that he might determine if she bore any likeness to your father.”[28]

Since Sylvia said she had never told anyone prior to revealing Josephine’s paternity to her, theses accounts suggest that rumors of Josephine’s true biological father arose from other sources that received limited private circulation prior to Sylvia Sessions’ death. In other words, several historical documents support a genetic relationship between the Prophet and Josephine, besides Sylvia’s affidavit.

http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/JSPolyandry/MASTERSexualPolyandry.html

If you read the other link it talks about evidence suggesting she may have been separated from Lyons at the time. You can believe what you want, but it is not the reasonable conclusion, and your believe is based on nothing except a belief Joseph would never do anything like that since it would be wrong.

[_harmony]

You can believe what you want, but it is not the reasonable conclusion, and your believe is based on nothing except a belief Joseph would never do anything like that since it would be wrong.

Joseph's list of sins is long and varied.

[_Themis]

You can believe what you want, but it is not the reasonable conclusion, and your believe is based on nothing except a belief Joseph would never do anything like that since it would be wrong.

Joseph's list of sins is long and varied.

Sure, right from the start when he was making up the Book of Mormon, or maybe earlier when he was taking money for treasure seeking. I don't condemn him, and I would not exist without him. He was a talented human being who may have believed he was doing the right thing in making stuff up, and when one gets power it's easy to misuse that influence.

[_gdemetz]

Chaps and company, and all the "accusers of our brethren," you have all been reading too much "tabloid" type material! Chaps, who said it was such a big secret? Perhaps she was just stressing that point. Anyhow, out of all these so called horrible affairs that Joseph had in which the alleged very dumb saints kept following him blindly anyway (how dumb!), if you can just show one once of proof to back up these tabloid claims, such as even one positive DNA link, then I will listen to what you have to say seriously! Until then, I won't take them seriously at all!!!

[_Drifting]

Chaps and company, and all the "accusers of our brethren," you have all been reading too much "tabloid" type material! Chaps, who said it was such a big secret? Perhaps she was just stressing that point. Anyhow, out of all these so called horrible affairs that Joseph had in which the alleged very dumb saints kept following him blindly anyway (how dumb!), if you can just show one once of proof to back up these tabloid claims, such as even one positive DNA link, then I will listen to what you have to say seriously! Until then, I won't take them seriously at all!!!

So you are sticking to the position that Joseph deliberately refused to obey the direct commandment from God to multiply and replenish the earth through polygamy?