Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

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_Drifting
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Drifting »

why me wrote:
DWhitmer wrote:
Actually, if he did believe David Whitmer, he would leave the Mormon Church like he and most of the Book of Mormon witnesses did. Mormonism is not based on the Holy Book of Mormon and missionaries should be circulating the D&C, not the Holy Book of Mormon.


I think that the many of the witnesses were between a rock and a hard place. They experienced something that could not be explained and yet, they could not remain faithful members. But they could not leave Mormonism alone because of that experience. It was always with them.

It must have been a sad life for them because of it and I am sure that they asked themselves 'why me' several times. However because they could not deny the experienced and remained faithful to the statement in the book of mormron, they do stand as a lasting witness to their experience.


Why didn't they sign the witness statement?
Why was the witness statement changed after they had supposedly agreed to it?
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_lulu
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _lulu »

gdemetz wrote:How dumb! Do you have any idea how many times these people were interviewed? A number of them fell away from the church and still did not change their testimony!

Do you have any idea how bad the provenance of those "testimonies" are?

Let's work through them one-by-one. You get first pick. Which one do you want to start with?
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Drifting wrote:
Why didn't they sign the witness statement?
Why was the witness statement changed after they had supposedly agreed to it?


Why did they leave the Church within a short time if they really believed their own statements? To claim they never denied their witnesses is to ignore their behavior. One might as well believe that J.S. never practiced polygamy because he never claimed to have multiple wives.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Themis
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Themis »

gdemetz wrote:Themis, I'm waiting to see what glorious discovery or revelation you have documented!


You are dodging the issue again. If I get one I feel the world needs to know about you can be sure I will do a better job then Joseph documenting it. Here is a link to the other thread where I ask you to provide some information. http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24038&start=84
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_Themis
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Themis »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Why did they leave the Church within a short time if they really believed their own statements? To claim they never denied their witnesses is to ignore their behavior. One might as well believe that J.S. never practiced polygamy because he never claimed to have multiple wives.


+1
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Additionally the claim that they never denied their witnesses, even though they left the Church, does nothing to support Joseph Smith as a leader of the Church, it only supports the production of the Book of Mormon. In fact it is evidence that all these people believed that J.S. was no longer directed by God. What does that say about the Utah Mormons?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_DWhitmer
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _DWhitmer »

Joe Geisner wrote:http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/06/who-authored-the-three-witness-statement/

WOW, just WOW. That Royal admits Smith is the author of the witness statement is ... to my mind...just WOW!...I think this is a huge admission.


You're reading more into it than Skousen meant.

To sum:

1. Skousen said Joe merely dictated the English of the Book of Mormon.
2. Skousen learned that the same method was used for the statement of the Three Witnesses.

Thus: 1 + 2 = Skousen does not believe that Joe authored the witness statement.



why me wrote:I think that the many of the witnesses were between a rock and a hard place. They experienced something that could not be explained and yet, they could not remain faithful members. But they could not leave Mormonism alone because of that experience. It was always with them.

It must have been a sad life for them because of it and I am sure that they asked themselves 'why me' several times. However because they could not deny the experienced and remained faithful to the statement in the book of mormron, they do stand as a lasting witness to their experience.


It's not hard to comprehend. The Holy Book of Mormon prophesied that Three Witnesses would be called to forever bear witness of the Nephite record. It was an honor for each of them to fulfill a 2000+ year old prophecy.

They detailed their experience which was not unlike other divine encounters and it was easy to follow its teachings outside of Mormonism than inside.


Drifting wrote:Why didn't they sign the witness statement?
Why was the witness statement changed after they had supposedly agreed to it?


Yes they did sign it and No their statement was not fundamentally changed.

lulu wrote:
gdemetz wrote:How dumb! Do you have any idea how many times these people were interviewed? A number of them fell away from the church and still did not change their testimony!


Let's work through them one-by-one. You get first pick. Which one do you want to start with?


This one:

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that we, through the grace of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, HAVE SEEN THE PLATES which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken, and we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, FOR HIS VOICE HATH DECLARED IT unto us; wherefore we know of a surety, that the work is true. And we also testify that we have SEEN THE ENGRAVINGS which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an ANGEL OF GOD CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that this is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ that we beheld and bear record that these things are true; and it is marvelous in our eyes, nevertheless, the VOICE OF THE LORD COMMANDED US THAT WE SHOULD BEAR RECORD OF IT; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


And

Fence Sitter wrote:Additionally the claim that they never denied their witnesses, even though they left the Church, does nothing to support Joseph Smith as a leader of the Church, it only supports the production of the Book of Mormon. In fact it is evidence that all these people believed that J.S. was no longer directed by God. What does that say about the Utah Mormons?


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_why me
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _why me »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Why did they leave the Church within a short time if they really believed their own statements? To claim they never denied their witnesses is to ignore their behavior. One might as well believe that J.S. never practiced polygamy because he never claimed to have multiple wives.


Why do people leave the church and say that it is a fraud? That is logical. They leave and call it a fraud. But the witnesses did not do this. They may have left but they did not deny their testimony and they did not call it a fraud. Why? Why did they behave so illogically? Because they could not deny what they experienced. And on their deathbeds, they repeated their testimony.

And their testimony stands for all to see and read.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _why me »

Fence Sitter wrote:Additionally the claim that they never denied their witnesses, even though they left the Church, does nothing to support Joseph Smith as a leader of the Church, it only supports the production of the Book of Mormon. In fact it is evidence that all these people believed that J.S. was no longer directed by God. What does that say about the Utah Mormons?


I think that the witnesses knew Joseph well. If he mis-stepped or misbehaved like a human being....they would become disillusioned. But they could not deny what they saw, experienced or felt with their hands: the Book of Mormon.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_gdemetz
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Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement

Post by _gdemetz »

Right, Why Me!
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