"I?????m a Mormon, Not a Christian"

[_son of Ishmael]

Gotta love this quote because it is implicitly true:

Mormons are certainly Christian enough to know how to spitefully abuse their power.

+1

[_LittleNipper]

Why do Mormons care whether the Baptists, for example, acknowledge their Christianity or not ? What common sense or practical reason is there? Why not just bide their time, non-desperately?

Let's say for a moment that influential people in the Southern Baptist Convention (as just one example) say that Latter-day Saints are not Christian, and Latter-day Saints say nothing. In that case, Southern Baptists will very possibly read the silence from the LDS Church as an indication that Latter-day Saints really aren't centered around Jesus Christ. That's not the result Latter-day Saints want. They want as many people as possible to think that they are in fact centered around Jesus.

What matters is not what "they" think, but what Christ expects. Christians are God pleasers and not people pleasers. That is why so many were killed in the terrible days of the Rome Empire and later when the church was being crushed under the traditions of the power hungary, who had infiltrated the Church.

[_angsty]

as far as I know, Jews don't view Christians as a "legitimate" successor to their faith at all-- why would we expect Christianity to acknowledge Mormonism that way? Mason was making the point that Mormonism doesn't need that acknowledgment at all, that Mormons need to stop looking to "broader Christianity" for some kind of approval as if they needed it somehow-- in the way that Christians eventually came to see themselves as their own thing instead of waiting and battling for some kind of validation from Judaism. What Christians acknowledge or don't acknowledge about Mormons shouldn't figure in.

I don't think the LDS Church is worried about how Biblical Christianity as a collective unit feels about whether the LDS Church is potentially a legitimate successor to Christianity, as much as it cares about whether individual Christians feel about that, in particular individual Christians who might investigate the divine inspiration of the LDS Church. This may sound cynical, but in all honesty it makes perfect sense to me. The LDS Church wants potential investigators to see the LDS Church as an organization that centers around Jesus Christ, which is what it in fact is.

I don't think you can make a helpful distinction between "Biblical Christianity as a collective unit" and "individual Christians" in this case. I see the LDS Church and its members attempting to appeal on both levels. Members want to be seen as Christians individually and as members of a Christian church, toward other individual Christians and among the various Christian denominations.

The LDS Church, however much it centers around "Jesus Christ", has a very different view of what "Jesus Christ" is. As far as I can tell, mainstream Christians sense an equivocation in the way the LDS Church conceives of Christ and Christianity. It isn't clear that Mormons appreciate that their teachings aren't just a matter of addition and clarification, they constitute (in many cases) addition, radical revision, and replacement. Mormonism tells a very different story with some of the same character names and plot-points.

I personally didn't appreciate that until I took a philosophy of religion course. I think it's a fair question whether Mormons and other Christians worship the same god, or different gods identified by the same name, etc. I also think it's a fair question in cases where LDS and Christian teachings share terminology-- when the LDS say "atonement," "salvation," "saved," do they mean what Christians mean by those terms, or are we talking about the same labels used for different concepts? I have to be sympathetic to the desire of some Christians to have those questions appreciated, rather than taken for granted.

I don't exactly have a dog in the fight (not being Christian or Mormon), but I think Mason is right that a more powerful move would be to stop trying to make a case that Mormonism fits into other Christians' perceptions of what Christianity is, and let Mormonism just be what it is. If Mormonism really is what it purports, then investigators are going to have experiences that will transcend concerns about the "Christian" label. I think Mormons should own that and trust that God is powerful enough to do his work whether Mormonism is accepted as Christian (in the way other Christian individuals and churches conceive of Christianity) or not.

[_Jason Bourne]

I sort of agree and sort of disagree with the fellows comments.

Historically the LDS Church is part of the reformationist movement of the early 19th century. But it went further than just a fix and claimed to be the original Christian Church. The LDS Church has never claimed to be orthodox Christianity. And in its early years, due to conflict with sectarian Christianity, the LDS Church became rather hostile in its rhetoric towards historic Christianity.

Certainly the LDS Church has much in common with Christianity. But it has much that is different as well. I know when I was a missionary our position was that WE are THE CHURCH OF Jesus Christ restored in its fullness and purity along with its priesthood authority. In other word WE were and are Christian and the rest of you apostate wannabes are not.

We did not worry so much about being called non Christian. If you meant like the orthodox historic christian sects that were all in apostasy we certainly were not like them. We were better, the real McCoy. They were the non Christians, not us.

The LDS Church has softened that. And I can see why. It does not sell well to the general public. But it did seem to gain more converts. Why convert to something that is similar to what you have? We were distinct and proud of it.

Still when those who oppose the LDS Church say it is not a Christian sect they usually do so in a polemical way and their goal is to marginalize the LDS Church. It is used in often a pejorative way and tied to the word cult. So members of the Church as well as the leadership insist that the LDS Church is Christian though not orthodox at all.

I am not sure what the best path to take is really. I know some here that are part of other Christian sects will say the path does not matter. The Mormon Church is in no way Christian. When I see such an attitude then I think the best path the LDS Church can take is to get back to the McConkie style in your face of "Sorry world, the rest of you are all just apostate sects that lack total truth and authority from God."

Now understand I say that in all humility because I don't feel passionate about this at all these days.

[_JAK]

This guy makes an interesting point. Why are Mormons so desperate to be accepted as Christians?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/opini ... stian.html

I’m with Harry Emerson Fosdick, the liberal Protestant minister and former pastor of Riverside Church in Manhattan, who wrote that he would be “ashamed to live in this generation and not be a heretic.” Being a Christian so often involves such boorish and meanspirited behavior that I marvel that any of my Mormon colleagues are so eager to join the fold.

“Reason set aside revelation.” http://www.reformedreflections.ca/biogr ... osdick.pdf
“Christianity” is so broad as presently to encompass more than 1500 “Christian” positions Christianity today, is virtually any view (belief) that a group wants to embrace and wants to indoctrinate on others. Fosdick was clearly a man ahead or out of his time. The Riverside Church in NYC stands as a monument to interdenominational perspective.

Scientific discoveries continue to displace religious dogma. Scientific discoveries threaten religious dogma at virtually every level of religious dogma. The evolution of the human species did not begin with religion. In fact, religion (via superstation) has been challenged in its dogma by the discoveries of science. Religious people “pray” to manipulate their God their notion (concept) of God. While they tend to claim that they “favor” God’s will, they pray to manipulate God as they perceive that myth.

Your title of this thread, is of little consequence. That is, “Mormon” is indeed an evolution of Christianity. Consider the time line. Mormon and Mormonism is a product of Christian evolution. It did not emerge from Islam or Buddhism or any other of the world's religions. It emerged (evolved) from Christianity. It’s a product of the evolution of Christian mythologies. I use the term “mythologies” in the plural because we can easily document multiple Christian mythologies.

The notion that Mormon is exclusive of those multiple Christian myths is a notion which lacks basis in fact. Without question, Fosdick was a thinker in his time. He did not conform. The magnificent, historic Riverside Church NYC would not have been possible without the wealth of the Rockefeller wealth. However, to conclude that “Mormon” is somehow disconnected from Christianity is incorrect.

JAK

[_sleepyhead]

Okay, let's say there is no desperation. Why is there any common sense or practical reason for Mormons to be accepted as Christians?

Rather simple stuff:

Christian: one who believes Jesus Christ is LORD and Savior.

An LDS believer: among other things, Believes Jesus Christ is LORD and Savior.

Hello stemelbow,

If you stick with the dictionary definition provided earlier then Mormons can claim to be Christian. When they use your definition then they aren't. In order to achieve exaltation you need to do your temple stuff. You need to be worthy in the eyes of the church. The church is your savior since they decide who is and isn't worthy.

[_KevinSim]

What matters is not what "they" think, but what Christ expects.

That implies that what Christ expects has no relation to what "they" think, and I don't think that's true at all. Christ expects us to reach out to people who don't understand Him, and that involves being very sensitive to what "they" think, and living lives that "they" can tell are centered around Christ.

[_LittleNipper]

What matters is not what "they" think, but what Christ expects.

That implies that what Christ expects has no relation to what "they" think, and I don't think that's true at all. Christ expects us to reach out to people who don't understand Him, and that involves being very sensitive to what "they" think, and living lives that "they" can tell are centered around Christ.

But does not preclude acceptance, even though Christ would be happy.

[_KevinSim]

But does not preclude acceptance, even though Christ would be happy.

That's a little cryptic. What does not "preclude acceptance, even though Christ would be happy"?

[_thews]

This guy makes an interesting point. Why are Mormons so desperate to be accepted as Christians?

I have no problem with the assertion that Mormons are to Christians what Christians are to Jews, which the author David Mason seemed to argue. I think the problem is that Biblical Christians seem to think that their faith is a legitimate successor to Judaism, whereas they proclaim that my faith is not a legitimate successor to Christianity.

You are not making sense. From a Jewish perspective, Christianity is not a legitimate successor to Judaism. From a Christian perspective, Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God, so it's not a legitimate successor to Christianity.

Also, the thing I keep coming back to is the dictionary definition. I look Christian up at "www.dictionary.com" and I get, "1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith; 2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country; 3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades; 4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity; 5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.

So my question is, why should I believe Biblical Christians have more of a right to define the term Christian than the dictionary does?

What part of Joseph Smith's doctrine is included in your argument? You believe in a completely different version of Jesus Christ based on a completely different doctrine than a Christian does. Just because the name "Jesus" is the same doesn't mean the theology is the same. What do you find when you look up "Mormon" in the dictionary?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Mormon

1.
the popular name given to a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
2.
See under Book of Mormon.

As you continue to attempt to pound the square peg in the round hole, why is it so hard for you to just accept you're a "Mormon" and Christians believe differently than you do? Be objective and look at this through a "Christian" perspective.