Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_CaliforniaKid]

A letter from LDS physicist George M. Lawrence to Jerald Tanner, dated Jan. 30, 1969, reads in part, “I should pass on to you an idea expressed to me by Glen Wade. He feels the Kinderhook hoax should be used to slowly change Mormons’ minds about the infallibility of their Prophets. By contrast the Papyri fiasco is so important and so basic that Mormons can’t begin to bring themselves to consider reality.”

I've sometimes wondered why ex-Mormons and critics of the Church spend so much time and energy on the Kinderhook Plates when the problems with the Book of Abraham seem to be more damaging "ammunition". Could Dr. Lawrence have put his finger on the reason? Is it that true believers find the Kinderhook Plates less threatening and thus are more willing to investigate them in the initial stages of their disaffection? Just wondering if this fits the experience of any of the ex-Mormons here. Did anyone start with less threatening issues like the Kinderhook Plates before working up the courage to tackle some of the bigger ones?

[_thews]

A letter from LDS physicist George M. Lawrence to Jerald Tanner, dated Jan. 30, 1969, reads in part, “I should pass on to you an idea expressed to me by Glen Wade. He feels the Kinderhook hoax should be used to slowly change Mormons’ minds about the infallibility of their Prophets. By contrast the Papyri fiasco is so important and so basic that Mormons can’t begin to bring themselves to consider reality.”

I've sometimes wondered why ex-Mormons and critics of the Church spend so much time and energy on the Kinderhook Plates when the problems with the Book of Abraham seem to be more damaging "ammunition". Could Dr. Lawrence have put his finger on the reason? Is it that true believers find the Kinderhook Plates less threatening and thus are more willing to investigate them in the initial stages of their disaffection? Just wondering if this fits the experience of any of the ex-Mormons here. Did anyone start with less threatening issues like the Kinderhook Plates before working up the courage to tackle some of the bigger ones?

I'd venture a guess that 98% of all Mormons don't know what the Kinderhook plates are. I'd also go as far as 80% knowing nothing about the source of the Book of Abraham. Ignorance is kept in check by obedience and the threat of the so-called "anti" label to discount anything they aren't instructed to believe. This is how a cult operates. To back that up, what would you say was the percentage of LDS that know the source of the Book of Mormon was seer stones and there never was an "Urim and Thummim" in Mormon lore, as it was added three years after the Book of Mormon was published? Questions like these are awkward to get an answer on, as once one starts to delve into the truth the whole house of cards falls. Which card was the pivotal one is sort of moot as there's so many.

[_Aristotle Smith]

Yes, that was the case for me, though not the Kinderhook Plates specifically.

I had always been curious about polygamy, but never wanted to investigate Mormon polygamy, it seemed untouchable to me. So, I started investigating polygamy in the context of the Ancient Near East, since that's the context Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. lived in. It seemed like since D&C 132 specifically cites them as the exemplars, knowing more about their context would be a more trouble free route to understanding the issues. Of course polygamy in the Ancient Near East has zero to do with Mormon polygamy, so I eventually had to tackle the issue head on, which lead to a loss of faith.

[_son of Ishmael]

A letter from LDS physicist George M. Lawrence to Jerald Tanner, dated Jan. 30, 1969, reads in part, “I should pass on to you an idea expressed to me by Glen Wade. He feels the Kinderhook hoax should be used to slowly change Mormons’ minds about the infallibility of their Prophets. By contrast the Papyri fiasco is so important and so basic that Mormons can’t begin to bring themselves to consider reality.”

I've sometimes wondered why ex-Mormons and critics of the Church spend so much time and energy on the Kinderhook Plates when the problems with the Book of Abraham seem to be more damaging "ammunition". Could Dr. Lawrence have put his finger on the reason? Is it that true believers find the Kinderhook Plates less threatening and thus are more willing to investigate them in the initial stages of their disaffection? Just wondering if this fits the experience of any of the ex-Mormons here. Did anyone start with less threatening issues like the Kinderhook Plates before working up the courage to tackle some of the bigger ones?

For me the Papyri were the smoking gun, final straw etc. When I learned about the Kinderhook plates I was already on the greased pole sliding into apostasy. They were just one more thing

[_Kishkumen]

Yes, that was the case for me, though not the Kinderhook Plates specifically.

I had always been curious about polygamy, but never wanted to investigate Mormon polygamy, it seemed untouchable to me. So, I started investigating polygamy in the context of the Ancient Near East, since that's the context Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. lived in. It seemed like since D&C 132 specifically cites them as the exemplars, knowing more about their context would be a more trouble free route to understanding the issues. Of course polygamy in the Ancient Near East has zero to do with Mormon polygamy, so I eventually had to tackle the issue head on, which lead to a loss of faith.

Yes. You start with the things right in front of you that make you go, "hmmm...."

[_Shulem]

The matter of the Kinderhook plates was something I just put on the back burner because I figured we simply didn't have all the facts or the information to put the whole story together in a fair or unbiased manner.

But the Facsimile No. 3 is what did me in. It was ultimately what nuked my testimony coupled with the whole Book of Abraham saga, of course. The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are slam dunks against the prophetic claims of the church. They expose Joseph Smith for the fake he was.

Critics should focus more energy on making noise about the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 and load their guns with real Egyptology and point them straight at the LDS church. Just watch the Mormon leaders run for cover! They are cowards, used to hiding behind the school teachers at BYU because they are too afraid to discuss those things in public.

Paul O

[_son of Ishmael]

The matter of the Kinderhook plates was something I just put on the back burner because I figured we simply didn't have all the facts or the information to put the whole story together in a fair or unbiased manner.

But the Facsimile No. 3 is what did me in. It was ultimately what nuked my testimony coupled with the whole Book of Abraham saga, of course. The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are slam dunks against the prophetic claims of the church. They expose Joseph Smith for the fake he was.

Critics should focus more energy on making noise about the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 and load their guns with real Egyptology and point them straight at the LDS church. Just watch the Mormon leaders run for cover! They are cowards, used to hiding behind the school teachers at BYU because they are too afraid to discuss those things in public.

Paul O

Facsimile NO. 3 did you in? That's funny you have never mentioned that before

[_Tobin]

Neither should have any effect on a Mormon that followed what God asked and spoke with him about the Book of Mormon. If they know there is a God and God told them to believe in the Book of Mormon, who cares?!? The papyri is Egyptian - it demonstrates nothing about Joseph Smith's ability to reveal the lost writings of Abraham. The Kinderhook affair is alot of smoke and no fire.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Tobin

Neither should have any effect on a Mormon that followed what God asked and spoke with him about the Book of Mormon. If they know there is a God and God told them to believe in the Book of Mormon, who cares?!? The papyri is Egyptian - it demonstrates nothing about Joseph Smith's ability to reveal the lost writings of Abraham. The Kinderhook affair is a lot of smoke and no fire.

Whaaaaat?

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Tobin]

Hey Tobin

Neither should have any effect on a Mormon that followed what God asked and spoke with him about the Book of Mormon. If they know there is a God and God told them to believe in the Book of Mormon, who cares?!? The papyri is Egyptian - it demonstrates nothing about Joseph Smith's ability to reveal the lost writings of Abraham. The Kinderhook affair is a lot of smoke and no fire.

Whaaaaat?

Peace,
Ceeboo

Hey Ceeboo, can you be a little more specific?