Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_Tobin]

Kind of a stretch, don't you think. If it's apparent that Joe was not able to translate Egyptian, what reason could there be to believe that the Book of Mormon is true?

I know you feel you have had a chat with God and he told you it was true, but the rest of the world has not. The easiest and most logical conclusion is that he made it all up.

He was a known liar, cheater, womanizer and con-man. Your personal beliefs cannot overcome that historical truth.

You know my position. The only out for Joseph Smith and crew is God. God doesn't show up and say, "yep, he's my guy" - it's lights out.

[_thews]

You know my position. The only out for Joseph Smith and crew is God. God doesn't show up and say, "yep, he's my guy" - it's lights out.

Do you know what being brainwashed means?

[Guest]

...

Let me make this very simple for you. Joseph Smith couldn't read reformed Egyptian that the Book of Mormon was written in. Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Got it? Good.

[_Tobin]

You know my position. The only out for Joseph Smith and crew is God. God doesn't show up and say, "yep, he's my guy" - it's lights out.

Do you know what being brainwashed means?

Do you know what insipid means?

[_Nightlion]

Not my point. He produced the Book of Moses through "pure revelation" without catalyst. Now apologist say that the papyri was the catalyst that he needed to have the Book of Abraham reveled to him. If he had the book of Moses reveled to him why didn't God just reveal the Book of Abraham to him?

I am at a loss to understand why Joseph Smith's use of Adamic words and phrases BEFORE the papyrus arrived in Kirtland is not GREAT evidence that Joseph Smith had already received the Book of Abraham, which cites in its text that Abraham had the Book of Remembrance, written in the language of Adam. Seems like a slam dunk to me.

But then, (heavy sigh) seems everyone who has donned the robes of a false priesthood, (academia) has taken oaths to marginalize everything a naked man (having no academic robe) might do and say, so as not to build up any renown, giving me no foil to score points against.

Then there is my explanation of why Joseph pretended to translate the papyrus and how he was setting up a test that would kick in 144 years in the future, and why he was despondent unto death knowing he had failed to establish Zion and the people needed to be MANAGED (given strong delusion as the prophecy said God would send) to endure closer to the end times so that the spark of Zion could ignite before the utter ruin of the Gentiles (that they all might be damned for not receiving Zion). Oh boy. Sounds like a game changer apologetic to me. But that is just me and (heavy sigh) oh well. Let's call this the first official apologetic of Zion. Yeah, Alright.

[_Called2Swerve]

A letter from LDS physicist George M. Lawrence to Jerald Tanner, dated Jan. 30, 1969, reads in part, “I should pass on to you an idea expressed to me by Glen Wade. He feels the Kinderhook hoax should be used to slowly change Mormons’ minds about the infallibility of their Prophets. By contrast the Papyri fiasco is so important and so basic that Mormons can’t begin to bring themselves to consider reality.”

I've sometimes wondered why ex-Mormons and critics of the Church spend so much time and energy on the Kinderhook Plates when the problems with the Book of Abraham seem to be more damaging "ammunition". Could Dr. Lawrence have put his finger on the reason? Is it that true believers find the Kinderhook Plates less threatening and thus are more willing to investigate them in the initial stages of their disaffection? Just wondering if this fits the experience of any of the ex-Mormons here. Did anyone start with less threatening issues like the Kinderhook Plates before working up the courage to tackle some of the bigger ones?

An introduction to the size, shape, function and material from which nails are made needs to precede any introduction to a coffin.

[_ludwigm]

I am at a loss to understand why Joseph Smith's use of Adamic words and phrases BEFORE the papyrus arrived in Kirtland is not GREAT evidence that Joseph Smith had already received the Book of Abraham, which cites in its text that Abraham had the Book of Remembrance, written in the language of Adam.

Well, I (a miserable non-native-english-speaker) am a loss to understand Your simple sentences
- but
there is no such language/word as adamic...


Ok, there is. I confess:
Have you ever wondered... What would it be like to speak another language? THIS is your answer! ADAMIC is the language spoken in Heaven. Non-mormons don't realize this, but when we die we will all need to learn this language.
Now, you too can Learn Adamic in less than 30 easy minutes!

pay
lay
ale

... from my [any organ: heart, mind, mouth, depending on context]
... this (these) word(s)
... oh, Lord hear

Adamic Dictionary

[_thews]

...

Let me make this very simple for you. Joseph Smith couldn't read reformed Egyptian that the Book of Mormon was written in. Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Got it? Good.

Let me make this very simple for you. Joseph Smith said he was "translating" the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith wrote the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar to document his "translation" process. You acknowledge Joseph Smith could not "translate" Egyptian. Are you calling Joseph Smith a liar?

[_Tobin]

Let me make this very simple for you. Joseph Smith said he was "translating" the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith wrote the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar to document his "translation" process. You acknowledge Joseph Smith could not "translate" Egyptian. Are you calling Joseph Smith a liar?

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. That is not how Joseph Smith translated. Joseph Smith "translated" by the gift and power of God. His separate speculations about the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar is unrelated to the Book of Abraham.

[_why me]

Indeed, Joseph Smith was doubly wrong. The Expanations of Facsimile No. 3 are an insult to the Egyptian race, Egyptian religion, and all things scholarly.

Paul O

Who cares. It will all be solved when we die. If Joseph was a true prophet..well...good luck. If not, well...good luck. If the catholics were right...well...you can go and visit Joseph and have a nice conversation with him.

And if nothing happens...just blackness and a ceasing of existence..well...it doesn't matter anyway.