Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_Themis]

A letter from LDS physicist George M. Lawrence to Jerald Tanner, dated Jan. 30, 1969, reads in part, “I should pass on to you an idea expressed to me by Glen Wade. He feels the Kinderhook hoax should be used to slowly change Mormons’ minds about the infallibility of their Prophets. By contrast the Papyri fiasco is so important and so basic that Mormons can’t begin to bring themselves to consider reality.”

I've sometimes wondered why ex-Mormons and critics of the Church spend so much time and energy on the Kinderhook Plates when the problems with the Book of Abraham seem to be more damaging "ammunition". Could Dr. Lawrence have put his finger on the reason? Is it that true believers find the Kinderhook Plates less threatening and thus are more willing to investigate them in the initial stages of their disaffection? Just wondering if this fits the experience of any of the ex-Mormons here. Did anyone start with less threatening issues like the Kinderhook Plates before working up the courage to tackle some of the bigger ones?

I never spent much time on the kinder-hook plates. To many unknowns, but Don is bringing up new information to make it more interesting. I think more attention is put on the kinder-hook plates from the apologists, since it is much easier to deal with. most Book of Abraham discussion die fast due to little attention from apologists who know a losing cause when they see one. The Book of Abraham really is one of the major issues hurting the church today.

[_Themis]

I just wonder, what's the point of trying to change Mormon's minds at all? The criticisms present possibilities extant faith. Faith presents an unlikely possibility that people just go with because in their minds, faith is evidence. They simply don't need to know how the Book of Abraham came about. Their lives are directed differently. It has nothing to do with the papyri not having anything about Abraham on them, nor whether the question of what is missing could possibly include writings about Abraham. It doesn't matter. What matters is, is there faith and Holy Inspiration involved in their lives.

No doubt critics who seek to change Mormon's minds will always have success but the majority of Mormons will easily see the such critics are missing the boat, and have no desire to understand where the Mormons they go after are coming from.

many members are open minded enough to realize their faith could be wrong. This is why this issue is a major one for the church.

[_son of Ishmael]

A letter from LDS physicist George M. Lawrence to Jerald Tanner, dated Jan. 30, 1969, reads in part, “I should pass on to you an idea expressed to me by Glen Wade. He feels the Kinderhook hoax should be used to slowly change Mormons’ minds about the infallibility of their Prophets. By contrast the Papyri fiasco is so important and so basic that Mormons can’t begin to bring themselves to consider reality.”

I've sometimes wondered why ex-Mormons and critics of the Church spend so much time and energy on the Kinderhook Plates when the problems with the Book of Abraham seem to be more damaging "ammunition". Could Dr. Lawrence have put his finger on the reason? Is it that true believers find the Kinderhook Plates less threatening and thus are more willing to investigate them in the initial stages of their disaffection? Just wondering if this fits the experience of any of the ex-Mormons here. Did anyone start with less threatening issues like the Kinderhook Plates before working up the courage to tackle some of the bigger ones?

I just wonder, what's the point of trying to change Mormon's minds at all? The criticisms present possibilities extant faith. Faith presents an unlikely possibility that people just go with because in their minds, faith is evidence. They simply don't need to know how the Book of Abraham came about. Their lives are directed differently. It has nothing to do with the papyri not having anything about Abraham on them, nor whether the question of what is missing could possibly include writings about Abraham. It doesn't matter. What matters is, is there faith and Holy Inspiration involved in their lives.

No doubt critics who seek to change Mormon's minds will always have success but the majority of Mormons will easily see the such critics are missing the boat, and have no desire to understand where the Mormons they go after are coming from.

"...no desire to understand where the Mormons they go after are coming from"


I know exactly where Mormons are coming from. I was a TBM for thirty years. I have seen the church from their perspective so I can relate to them, but they can't see the church from my perspective now so they can not relate to me. So I either get hostility as in “you must have sinned” or I get condescension as in “we just need to love him…”

[_Themis]

I agree that Joseph could not translate Egyptian. He claimed to be able to translate ancient languages of Egyptian and reformed Egyptian, Greek, etc. With the papyri and Gold plates he claimed to be able to translate them as the word translate actually means. He didn't claim to be getting some origin story and he was actually seeking the meaning of each hieroglyph including the missing ones. He was claiming to be seeking the meaning of each part of the facsimiles. He provides explanations for the facsimiles that cannot be separated from them, nor be explained by some catalyst theory, unless we make both Joseph and God into idiots like dumb and dumber that I mentioned on another thread with God being the ladder one.

[_CaliforniaKid]

I just wonder, what's the point of trying to change Mormon's minds at all?

To be clear, that was a quote from George Lawrence. Personally, I'm not really interested in changing Mormons' minds, though I'm happy to support and encourage people who are already headed down that path. I tend to think accurate views are better for humanity in the long run than inaccurate ones, but I also recognize that the transition from inaccurate to accurate views can be a difficult and painful one. So I try to respect people's choices and avoid pushing troubling information on people who aren't already looking for it.

[_Themis]

To be clear, that was a quote from George Lawrence. Personally, I'm not really interested in changing Mormons' minds, though I'm happy to support and encourage people who are already headed down that path. I tend to think accurate views are better for humanity in the long run than inaccurate ones, but I also recognize that the transition from inaccurate to accurate views can be a difficult and painful one. So I try to respect people's choices and avoid pushing troubling information on people who aren't already looking for it.

Agreed, I don't bring up these issues unless people want to discuss it, and even then I may not.

[_Quasimodo]

To be clear, that was a quote from George Lawrence. Personally, I'm not really interested in changing Mormons' minds, though I'm happy to support and encourage people who are already headed down that path. I tend to think accurate views are better for humanity in the long run than inaccurate ones, but I also recognize that the transition from inaccurate to accurate views can be a difficult and painful one. So I try to respect people's choices and avoid pushing troubling information on people who aren't already looking for it.

Agreed, I don't bring up these issues unless people want to discuss it, and even then I may not.

I find that I never feel comfortable in real life discussing these matters. It never ends well. That is what I like about this board. People come here to discuss those very things. If you are here, you must be up to the conversation and desiring it.

It's a good place to let your hair hang out and have a rousing conversation. Apologists angrily come here to do battle. Apostates come here to be comforted in their choice. Nevermos (like me) come here to watch the show and make an occasional comment. TBMs come here to make their testaments and profess a burning of bosom (and get offended). Lurkers come here to hear both sides and make a decision.

It's a circus of delights.

[_Shulem]

most Book of Abraham discussion die fast due to little attention from apologists who know a losing cause when they see one. The Book of Abraham really is one of the major issues hurting the church today.

The church is going to really be in hot water once the story of Facismile No. 3 about calling the black man (Egyptian god Anubis) a slave becomes a major public complaint. This has not caught on yet but when it does the Mormon church will be forced to address this. At minimum they will add something to the Explanation to play it down and at most remove the Facsimile from canon.

It will happen. The church will answer for this slander! They have slandered the black race long enough and now they will pay.

Paul O

[_Tobin]

Agreed, I don't bring up these issues unless people want to discuss it, and even then I may not.

I find that I never feel comfortable in real life discussing these matters. It never ends well. That is what I like about this board. People come here to discuss those very things. If you are here, you must be up to the conversation and desiring it.

It's a good place to let your hair hang out and have a rousing conversation. Apologists angrily come here to do battle. Apostates come here to be comforted in their choice. Nevermos (like me) come here to watch the show and make an occasional comment. TBMs come here to make their testaments and profess a burning of bosom (and get offended). Lurkers come here to hear both sides and make a decision.

It's a circus of delights.

I disagree. The Book of Abraham gets right at the root of Mormon beliefs and why Mormons should or should not hold those beliefs. When a Mormon is confronted with the reality of the Book of Abraham and what the implications really are of it, they should make a choice. It isn't going to go away. They either need to decide whether to really find out if Mormonism is true by actually speaking with God; or they need to admit to themselves that they have no good reason to believe it and this is a clear indication that Joseph Smith was a fraud. I understand why Mormons might want to shy away from it, but it is a challenge to the faith most Mormons possess in perfect prophets and following Mormonism because they "feel" it is true.

[_Quasimodo]

[
I find that I never feel comfortable in real life discussing these matters. It never ends well. That is what I like about this board. People come here to discuss those very things. If you are here, you must be up to the conversation and desiring it.

It's a good place to let your hair hang out and have a rousing conversation. Apologists angrily come here to do battle. Apostates come here to be comforted in their choice. Nevermos (like me) come here to watch the show and make an occasional comment. TBMs come here to make their testaments and profess a burning of bosom (and get offended). Lurkers come here to hear both sides and make a decision.

It's a circus of delights.

I disagree. The Book of Abraham gets right at the root of Mormon beliefs and why Mormons should or should not hold those beliefs. When a Mormon is confronted with the reality of the Book of Abraham and what the implications really are of it, they should make a choice. It isn't going to go away. They either need to decide whether to really find out if Mormonism is true by actually speaking with God; or they need to admit to themselves that they have no good reason to believe it and this is a clear indication that Joseph Smith was a fraud. I understand why Mormons might want to shy away from it, but it is a challenge to the faith most Mormons possess in perfect prophets and following Mormonism because they "feel" it is true.

Disagree at your peril! (just kidding). I thought that was a pretty good description of the board. OK, I inadvertently left out you and Nightlion... those members that chat with God. Still, not a bad appraisal.