Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_Tobin]

Disagree at your peril! (just kidding). I thought that was a pretty good description of the board. OK, I inadvertently left out you and Nightlion... those members that chat with God. Still, not a bad appraisal.

Eh, I don't think the appraisal that nobody but I and Nightlion are having chats with God could possibly be accurate. If God exists, I don't think God is only talking to two people on the whole planet. In fact, chatting with God a lot more would to the Mormon Church a lot of good I think. After all, that is the basis upon which it was founded. And it isn't just myself and Nightlion that think this way - apparently some posters on MAD have expressed similar views about the Book of Abraham (check out the OP to this thread) http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24247&start=63

[_Themis]

You haven't brought up anything. You have pointed out (as have others) that Joseph Smith speculated about the papyri and facsimiles as being written by the hand of Abraham and also contained a record of Joseph. That is factually untrue. Everyone, outside of TBMs and a few nutty apologists, KNOWS that. He was wrong. To error is human. Get over it.

Then his speculation about the explanations listed for the facsimiles must be made up and therefore you must jettison them as inspired of God. This doesn't even get into the rest of it and how God would be dumb enough to give him information for each hieroglyph.

[_Tobin]

You haven't brought up anything. You have pointed out (as have others) that Joseph Smith speculated about the papyri and facsimiles as being written by the hand of Abraham and also contained a record of Joseph. That is factually untrue. Everyone, outside of TBMs and a few nutty apologists, KNOWS that. He was wrong. To error is human. Get over it.

Then his speculation about the explanations listed for the facsimiles must be made up and therefore you must jettison them as inspired of God. This doesn't even get into the rest of it and how God would be dumb enough to give him information for each hieroglyph.

Again, God did not give him information on each hieroglyphic. God revealed the Book of Abraham to Joseph Smith. The Book of Abraham is NOT in the Egyptian papyri. I wish I could make a recording of my answers and give you a voice option to play it back everytime you bring up the same stupid assertions.

[_Shulem]

The Book of Abraham is NOT in the Egyptian papyri.

Joseph Smith and his companions said otherwise. I believe Joseph Smith. You, Tobin, are a liar.



Paul O

[_Themis]

Again, God did not give him information on each hieroglyphic. God revealed the Book of Abraham to Joseph Smith. The Book of Abraham is NOT in the Egyptian papyri. I wish I could make a recording of my answers and give you a voice option to play it back everytime you bring up the same stupid assertions.

You have been shown in this thread that he was. Joseph was working on it here and there over a number of years. He didn't come up with the story all at once. It still doesn't explain that his explanations for the facsimiles can come from God with the catalyst theory. It doesn't explain why he would be stupid enough to speculate about things he can't know and not ask God who he claims he is talking to regularly. It doesn't explain how God could be so stupid not to correct Joesph on such an important issue, and not just correct, but not give him revelation he is seeking on specific hieroglyphs and facsimiles. Again Joseph didn't ask for the whole story, but he was claiming to ask for the translation of the papyri from God.

[_Tobin]

Again, God did not give him information on each hieroglyphic. God revealed the Book of Abraham to Joseph Smith. The Book of Abraham is NOT in the Egyptian papyri. I wish I could make a recording of my answers and give you a voice option to play it back everytime you bring up the same stupid assertions.

You have been shown in this thread that he was. Joseph was working on it here and there over a number of years. He didn't come up with the story all at once. It still doesn't explain that his explanations for the facsimiles can come from God with the catalyst theory. It doesn't explain why he would be stupid enough to speculate about things he can't know and not ask God who he claims he is talking to regularly. It doesn't explain how God could be so stupid not to correct Joesph on such an important issue, and not just correct, but not give him revelation he is seeking on specific hieroglyphs and facsimiles. Again Joseph didn't ask for the whole story, but he was claiming to ask for the translation of the papyri from God.

Please press 1 if your question is about how Joseph Smith translated - beep - 1. Joseph Smith didn't translate by learning the language (or even knowing it). He translated by the gift and power of God. The facts are simply this. The Egyptian papyri DO NOT contain the Book of Abraham. Translating the Egyptian Hieroglyphics on them will not yield the Book of Abraham. God revealed the ancient (and lost) record that Abraham made to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, admittedly, incorrectly thought that it was contained in the Egyptian papyri itself (like the records of the Nephites were contained on the Gold Plates). This is understandable because he did not know Egyptian Hieroglyphics and did not know a thing about what he was looking at.

[_Quasimodo]

You have been shown in this thread that he was. Joseph was working on it here and there over a number of years. He didn't come up with the story all at once. It still doesn't explain that his explanations for the facsimiles can come from God with the catalyst theory. It doesn't explain why he would be stupid enough to speculate about things he can't know and not ask God who he claims he is talking to regularly. It doesn't explain how God could be so stupid not to correct Joesph on such an important issue, and not just correct, but not give him revelation he is seeking on specific hieroglyphs and facsimiles. Again Joseph didn't ask for the whole story, but he was claiming to ask for the translation of the papyri from God.

I think Tobin has a completely unique explanation for the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. I think he believes that Joe had no translating abilities and God gave him the words to write. Joe lied about that (among many other things) and said he did know how to translate many languages.

In essence, he believes the fact that Joe was a liar and scalawag proves that both these books are true. I'm sure it is very clear to him. The rest of us are having a little trouble with it.

[_Tobin]

I think Tobin has a completely unique explanation for the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. I think he believes that Joe had no translating abilities and God gave him the words to write. Joe lied about that (among many other things) and said he did know how to translate many languages.

In essence, he believes the fact that Joe was a liar and scalawag proves that both these books are true. I'm sure it is very clear to him. The rest of us are having a little trouble with it.

No, I believe Joseph Smith was rather full of himself sometimes and thought he knew more than he did. He'd just translated the Gold Plates and thought he could do anything. Pride goeth before a fall and the Book of Abraham from the Egyptian papyri fiasco was a great fall for him. He really stepped in it (as have any apologist that has come along thinking he knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics too).

[_Shulem]

Tobin is a loony. Stop talking to him.



Paul O

[_Quasimodo]

Tobin is a loony. Stop talking to him.



Paul O

I don't think Tobin is a loony. There are some real loonies on this board, but Tobin just has some odd ideas. Tobin can be a little frustrating (sorry Tobin) in his dogmatic defense of his views, but his posts do spice things up a bit.

If nothing else, he is always polite. I can't say that for some others here. If we all agreed, there would be nothing to talk about.