If NAMIRS is dying, which LDS apologist responds to this...?

[_Uncle Dale]

How many people testified of seeing Joseph translate this way? Emma, Oliver, Martin Harris? Any others? How many times did Martin Harris see him? I'm only vaguely familiar with this, but I would guess Martin Harris only observed him less than a handful of times, and I bet each time was carefully set up by Joseph and Oliver.

Martin Harris spent day after day with Smith at Harmony,
writing down Smith's dictation. So Harris had quite a bit of
exposure to Joseph Smith's "translation" techniques.

On the other hand, Harris appears to have been the only
Book of Mormon scribe who was forced to remain behind a
screen, out of sight of the head-in-the-hat guy, while Joe
was dictating the Nephite narrative.

In other words -- as soon as the curtain was put in place --
Martin Harris had no idea as to whether Smith was dictating
from a head-in-the-hat stance, or from a reading-a-text
stance. Smith could have done practically anything there,
back behind his shielding blanket, and Harris would have been
none the wiser.

UD

[_Mary]

Dale, I see you have on your site the recollections of Sidney's grandson.

Sidney Rigdon's Grandson Says Their Family Understood it to be a Fraud -- EDITOR TRIBUNE: -- In the intervals of my literary labors here I have many talks with men who were in Utah at a very early day, and occasionally with original Mormons or their sons, which would be interesting had I the time to detail them. But my chance talks with one of these are so agreeable that I report him briefly for you. Mr. Walter Sidney Rigdon is a citizen of Carrolton, Cattaraugus County, N. Y., and a grandson of Sidney Rigdon, thepartner of Joe Smith. He talked with old Sidney hundreds of times about the "scheme of the Golden Bible." and his father still has many of the old Sidney's documents.

"Grandfather was a religious crank," says Mr. Rigdon, "till he lost money by it. He started in as a Baptist preacher, and had a very fine congregation for those days, in Pittsburg. There was no reason at all for his leaving, except that he got "cracked." At that time he had no ideas of making money. Indeed, while he was with the Mormons, his chances to make money were good enough for most men; but he came out of it about as poor as he went in."

B. -- "But how did he change first?"

"Well, he tried to understand the prophicies, and the man who does that is sure to go crazy. He studied the prophets and baptism, and of course he got [enough?] [Daniel?} and Ezekiel and Revelation [to] 'rattle' any man who gives [in his] mind to 'em -- at any rate [they got] him, and he joined Alexander Campbell. Campbell then [taught that] the end of the world was [nigh]. [His] Millennial Harginger [thoroughly] 'rattled' all who listened to him in Ohio and other places; [then] grandfather got disgusted and [ducked out?] [of] the new deal. He 'found' Joe Smith and they had a great many talks together before they brought out the [plates]. None of us ever doubted that they got the whole thing up; but [father?] always maintained that grandfather helped get up the original Spaulding book. At any rate he got a copy [very] early and schemed on some way to make it useful. Although the family knew these facts, they refused to talk on the subject while grandfather lived. In fact, he and they took on [a] huge disgust at the whole subject.

Grandfather died at Friendship, Alleghany county, N. Y. in 1876, [age] eighty years old. His son Sidney, my father, was born at Mentor in 1828 and remembers the stirring [times of] Mormonism. He lives [where I know] Grandfather had preached to his [near] neighbors in Alleghany and [taken the] converts to Nauvoo, so after the break up in 1844, he returned to live at Friendship. For a while he spoke of Mormonism as an attempt to [improve] Christianity; but the later [phases] of the thing in Utah were totally different from what he had taught. His daughter Nancy Rigdon is now Mrs Ellis of Pittsburgh, and her husband is a journalist in that city. Her testimony against Joe Smith is very strong. The Prophet was no doubt a thoroughly bad man, etc."

I only report that part of Mr. Rigdon's talk which shows the history of the "Golden Bible," as accepted in the family. Of course, if Sidney Rigdon had wanted the world to believe the Smith story of the plates, he would have told them so. But, though the family do not care to ventillate it, he evidently taught them to treat the whole thing as a fraud. -- J. H. Bradley. -- New York, April 7, 1888.

Is there anything of interest in the collection of letters from Josephine Rigdon Secord? Some of the titles look interesting....

http://files.lib.BYU.edu/ead/XML/MSS1281.xml

[_Uncle Dale]

Dale, I see you have on your site the recollections of Sidney's grandson.

Sidney Rigdon's Grandson Says...

"Grandfather was a religious crank...
he tried to understand the prophicies, and the man who does that
is sure to go crazy. He studied the prophets...

Is there anything of interest in the collection of letters from Josephine Rigdon Secord? Some of the titles look interesting....

http://files.lib.BYU.edu/ead/XML/MSS1281.xml

Of course the proponents of the Smith-all-by-himself authorship
explanations are going to reply saying Sidney's grandson probably
had a grudge about the old man, and was telling lies, etc. etc.

It would take more than the testimony of a single Rigdon family
member, to strongly implicate Sidney in the production of the
Book of Mormon -- and at least two members of that same family
were happy to testify that Sidney was totally innocent.

So, unless some additional family testimony can be uncovered,
there's something like a stalemate within the ranks of Rigdon kin.

The stuff at BYU is marginally relative to the question. I've seen
some of it. There are some family tidbits that should be shared
with the interested public -- but nothing conclusive. One
interesting document in those files has what appears to be an
important page missing. Perhaps the Lee Library staff should go
ahead and release these documents for publication. But I do
not think they would answer our most important questions.

Rigdon, before his Nov. 1830 Mormon baptism, was obviously
very interested in the idea of a literal fulfillment of the biblical
prophecies to the ancient Israelites. Like Ethan Smith and so
many others of that period, Rigdon did not accept the standard
Christian tenet, that the establishment of the Church had
spiritualized, or nullified or fulfilled those Old Testament promises.

I suppose Rigdon viewed the Old Testament as an intricate
fabric of literally true events and foretellings -- which, if it
could all be understood within the framework of a single
modern interpretation, would overthrow contemporary Christian
religion, and prove it to be a blasphemous apostasy.

It must have deeply pained Elder Rigdon, to have to peddle
Alexander Campbell's 1822 Bible, which left out the Old Testament books
and relegated their Israelite promises and blessings to the trash.
Rigdon probably quit acting as Campbell's book sales agent, out
in the wilds of Ohio, toward the end of the 1820s. He was
looking for a different sort of scriptures than what Campbell
was promoting.

He tried to understand the prophecies -- and the man who does
that is sure to go crazy.

UD

[_MCB]

I really enjoyed Craig's research on testimonies of Rigdon's work pre-1830. Testimonies of Spalding's work are insufficient by themselves. This is a great addition. Thanks, Carig. Dale, you can relay that if he doesn't come here. I can now abandon my wild hare about E. Smith.

[_why me]

I really enjoyed Craig's research on testimonies of Rigdon's work pre-1830. Testimonies of Spalding's work are insufficient by themselves. This is a great addition. Thanks, Carig. Dale, you can relay that if he doesn't come here. I can now abandon my wild hare about E. Smith.

A great addition that proves nothing at all. However, it does help for speculation of what ifs.

[_Uncle Dale]

...I can now abandon my wild hare about E. Smith.

Of course Ethan Smith's grandson claimed that Solomon Spalding
got the basis for his Nephite narrative from an unpublished novel
that Ethan Smith himself had written.

Salmon S. Osborn claimed to have seen just such a manuscript
story in the village immediately adjacent to Ethan Smith's old
parish in Vermont, years after Solomon and Ethan had both died.

If Ethan Smith wrote such an Israelite novel, he was obviously too
embarrassed by that fact to ever admit to it in the public press.
Ethan lived a couple of decades after the Book of Mormon was
first published, and could have offered a great deal of religious
condemnation on that subject, had he cared to do so. But Ethan
was as quiet as a churchmouse. So far as I can determine he
never published a word on his reported connection with Solomon
Spalding, nor upon the story contained in the Mormon book itself.

I find it strange, that the author of the one book most resembling
the central (Israelite Indians) thesis of the Mormon tale, never
summoned up enough gumption to write a word against Mormonism
or against Mormonism's first book of "scripture."

Perhaps old Ethan simply did not want that can of worms opened...

UD

[_Uncle Dale]

...speculation of what ifs.

What if there never were any Nephites?

For years I attended a church in which members were allowed
to ask that question. Each time one did so, the discussion that
followed tended to weaken the church's historical foundation.

Can 21st century Mormons continue to be members, after deciding
that Nephites never existed?

When all is said and done, that is where Craig Criddle is headed
with his message. I for one, think it will have some substantial
effect -- both upon the LDS mission field and upon wavering
current members, investigating the Church's history.

So -- if we are only talking about "what ifs" here -- I'd like to
ask the "what if" question ----> "What if Criddle's conclusions
begin to have a negative effect on Mormon Church membership?"

That prompts the title of this thread.

Who will refute Criddle?
I still think Vogel will be that LDS champion.

UD

[_MCB]

Of course Ethan Smith's grandson claimed that Solomon Spalding got the basis for his Nephite narrative from an unpublished novel that Ethan Smith himself had written.

Thanks. There is too much evidence for Rigdon, now, to explore it much. E. Smith's broad base of knowledge is what attracts me to the theory that he made contributions. But I can really amp up on Rigdon now.

Who will refute Criddle? I still think Vogel will be that LDS champion.

That is the reason why I like a broader base to my arguments. If one part falls, that does not negate the whole thing. I really don't want to go up against DV. He also has some good insights, despite his hard-headedness.

[_robuchan]

I don't know if this is an original thought by me, or if it was planted by Uncle Dale or someone else from my studies on this subject over the years.

Do we have any pre-1930 writings or public sermons from Rigdon? I think the best way to find this out is to correlate the religious texts of the Book of Mormon with Rigdon sermons.

The Book of Mormon religious sermons of 2 Ne 9, end of 2 Nephi, King Benjamin sermons, Abinadi preaching, Alma/Amulek teaching in Alma 32 - 41, Moroni 7 - 10, they are all very similar and all pretty specific Campbellite style Christianity. Rigdon seemed interested in this stuff. Joseph never really seemed that interested in the minutea of Christian doctrine. He moved quickly into the cosmos doctrines and the big picture stuff. I don't know if we'll ever correlate the war chapters to Spalding that successfully, but over time i think we'll be able to correlate the preaching to some 19th century texts.

[_Uncle Dale]

I don't know if this is an original thought by me, or if it was planted by Uncle Dale or someone else from my studies on this subject over the years.

Do we have any pre-1930 writings or public sermons from Rigdon? I think the best way to find this out is to correlate the religious texts of the Book of Mormon with Rigdon sermons.

The Book of Mormon religious sermons of 2 Ne 9, end of 2 Nephi, King Benjamin sermons, Abinadi preaching, Alma/Amulek teaching in Alma 32 - 41, Moroni 7 - 10, they are all very similar and all pretty specific Campbellite style Christianity. Rigdon seemed interested in this stuff. Joseph never really seemed that interested in the minutea of Christian doctrine. He moved quickly into the cosmos doctrines and the big picture stuff. I don't know if we'll ever correlate the war chapters to Spalding that successfully, but over time i think we'll be able to correlate the preaching to some 19th century texts.

We have a couple of summaries of some pre-1830 Rigdon sermons,
but nothing like an actual text. Rigdon contributed frequently to the
first Mormon newspapers, and those articles are the earliest extant
writings of his that might resemble a sermon. Possibly he wrote some
of that stuff prior to his Mormon baptism -- but we can't determine
that for certain.

Alexander Campbell's Christian Baptist monthly newsletter
contained numerous unsigned articles and letters during the years
when Rigdon was still a Campbellite. Perhaps word-print analysis
can one day help us sort out a few of those writings and firmly
attribute them to Rigdon.

Likewise, the 1823 "Third Epistle of Peter," published by Rigdon's
congregation in Pittsburgh, can be attributed to him, via preliminary
word-print analysis. But more analysis of that sort needs to be
carried out, before we can be certain that Rigdon wrote that
religious text.

All I can hope for is that one day somebody will find a pre-1830
sermon or discourse that we can positively say was Rigdon's.
Such a discovery is possible, but unlikely.

UD