Tobin wrote:Yes, the papyri are Egyptian. They have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. The depictions in the facsimiles may or may not of however. Since I do not know what the original depictions were, I can not tell you.
Again, I think you're missing the point here. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). The facsimiles are the papyrus. There is no "papyrus" that exists independently of the facsimiles. The facsimiles are facsimiles of pictographic vignettes, representing the mummification process and the journey to the "far shore" of the next life.
The papyri were magical texts. Egyptian immortality magic required the use of these kinds of magical texts. It's not as though "the papyrus" is one thing (i.e. the hieroglyphic text) and the vignettes/facsimiles are another thing. The vignettes/facsimiles are the papyrus.
Given that, how can you assert that "the depictions" in the facsimiles "may or may not have had" anything to do with the Book of Abraham, since as you readily admit, the papyrus did not?
As I said, I believe Joseph Smith was trying to restore these depictions (hence the changes that were thought to be mistakes by the Church).
If the papyrus has nothing to do with the Book of Abraham, then ipso facto the facsimiles do not have anything to do with the Book of Abraham, either. In which case, my original question stands: how could the facsimiles, even after being "corrected," have anything to do with the Book of Abraham?
Also: which "changes" are you referring to, specifically? Do you mean the fact that Anubis is represented as being just a regular black man, with a little pointy thing on his head, as opposed to the Jackal-Headed God? I'm not sure which "changes" you're talking about.
I don't know how I can be any more clear? I believe Abraham made an original record that included facsimile depictions. They are NOT the writings contained in the papyri. These original records and facsimiles no longer exist anywhere. And I understand the facsimile depictions in the papyri are part of the Egyptian papyri and do not now reflect what Abraham wrote or depicted. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Joseph Smith was attempting to restore the "original" writings (through the Book of Abraham which is incomplete) and changes to the Egyptian facsimile depictions (which I do not know how close or different they were from the facsimile depictions that Abraham made).
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:These original records and facsimiles no longer exist anywhere. And I understand the facsimile depictions in the papyri are part of the Egyptian papyri and do not now reflect what Abraham wrote or depicted. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Joseph Smith was attempting to restore the "original" writings (through the Book of Abraham which is incomplete) and changes to the Egyptian facsimile depictions (which I do not know how close or different they were from the facsimiles depictions that Abraham made).
So you're saying the papyrus that Joseph had and which contained the facsimilies was not the papyrus that Abraham wrote on?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Tobin wrote:These original records and facsimiles no longer exist anywhere. And I understand the facsimile depictions in the papyri are part of the Egyptian papyri and do not now reflect what Abraham wrote or depicted. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Joseph Smith was attempting to restore the "original" writings (through the Book of Abraham which is incomplete) and changes to the Egyptian facsimile depictions (which I do not know how close or different they were from the facsimiles depictions that Abraham made).
So you're saying the papyrus that Joseph had and which contained the facsimilies was not the papyrus that Abraham wrote on?
Yes, they are Egyptian copies of their stories and myths. They have nothing to do with Abraham's original writings.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Drifting wrote:So you're saying the papyrus that Joseph had and which contained the facsimilies was not the papyrus that Abraham wrote on?
Yes, they are Egyptian copies of their stories and myths. They have nothing to do with Abraham's original writings.
Which makes it a bit awkward that the Church, officially, tells us...
A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus. (See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
Tobin, even the Church doesn't support your speculation.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Tobin wrote:Yes, they are Egyptian copies of their stories and myths. They have nothing to do with Abraham's original writings.
Which makes it a bit awkward that the Church, officially, tells us...
A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus. (See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
Tobin, even the Church doesn't support your speculation.
As I've said, I'm interested in the truth - or what is more likely true given the facts, so I don't care what the Church states. They have made mistakes in the past so they don't have a good track record. And Ed Ashment and Hugh Nibley speculated along these lines as I cited below, so I don't feel it is something that is outlandish.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
11 Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of aHam. These virgins were offered up because of their virtue; they would not bbow down to worship gods of wood or of stone, therefore they were killed upon this altar, and it was done after the manner of the Egyptians.
12 And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar; and that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record.
It is interesting that Abraham takes the debate away from us by referring to Facsimilie 1 in the transcript of Chapter 1 in the Book of Abraham. This means, unequivically, that his writings and the facsimilies are indeed the original versions.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
11 Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of aHam. These virgins were offered up because of their virtue; they would not bbow down to worship gods of wood or of stone, therefore they were killed upon this altar, and it was done after the manner of the Egyptians.
12 And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar; and that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record.
It is interesting that Abraham takes the debate away from us by referring to Facsimilie 1 in the transcript of Chapter 1 in the Book of Abraham. This means, unequivically, that his writings and the facsimilies are indeed the original versions.
It is also interesting that I also have stated multiple times that Abraham did make original facsimiles too. Wow, funny how that works out and correspond's with the Book of Abraham.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:You don't have a point. You don't believe in God. You believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and a fraud, you believe Moses was a false prophet and a fraud, you believe Muhammad was a false prophet and fraud, and you believe Jesus Christ was not the son of God and a fraud. You believe ALL religions are a hoax. There is nothing a Mormon (or any religious person), who believes in a God, can possibly learn about God, the gospel, or the truth from you.
Yet I was for decades and was a believing member as well. Funny that you say you were on a mission and don't know much about the church.
Just because you are incapable of understanding what I've said on numerous occasions (over pages of threads with you) is not my problem. The only dumb and dumber being here is you.
I understand only to well. You just don't like that people are bringing up the problems with your theory and you have to move your position all the time. This last page was the worse and people are scratching their head at the gibberish you are now coming up with.
Samantabhadra wrote: Also: which "changes" are you referring to, specifically? Do you mean the fact that Anubis is represented as being just a regular black man, with a little pointy thing on his head, as opposed to the Jackal-Headed God? I'm not sure which "changes" you're talking about.
That one cannot be a change since the head was missing on the papyri in Joseph's day. They just put in what they thought it would look like.
Not to mention the area where they decided he was caring a knife.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tobin wrote: As I've said, I'm interested in the truth - or what is more likely true given the facts, so I don't care what the Church states. They have made mistakes in the past so they don't have a good track record. And Ed Ashment and Hugh Nibley speculated along these lines as I cited below, so I don't feel it is something that is outlandish.
It's not outlandish because some smart people said it. LOL I brought already that they tried to assert the opposite of what the evidence tells us and provide none to support this outlandish idea. That really is the catalyst theory in a nut shell. My apologetic that Joseph was corrected but died before he could tell others has as much evidential support as the catalyst theory.