Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_Tobin]

I don't believe that is accurate. Where Jo and I (and others) are coming from is a more evolved understanding of Mormonism. It isn't something other than Mormonism, but a richer view of Mormonism and what it hints at. For example, Joseph Smith often spoke of things he could not reveal and this topic and others are part of that larger discussion.

Of course you have your own version of what you think true Mormonism looks like. So does Jo whose will look a little different then yours. The point is that Mormonism that Joseph came up with and the church teaches today about children who die before 8 is different then yours. You think Joseph and the church today is wrong. That's fine by me.

You are dealing with a complex situation in a simplistic way. That is never a good idea.

I'm happy to agree with Joseph Smith when he is correct in my view. I'm also just as happy to disagree with him when he's mistaken in my view. That just comes with the territory that Joseph Smith was NOT God's sock puppet and so he was mortal and fallible and so am I. The same can be said of the LDS Church. When someone presumes to speak for the Church and says something incorrect in my view, I'll disagree with it. When they teach something that I view as being correct, then I'll agree with them. Again, it is simply because the Church is a man-made organization comprised of fallible men and women and NOT God's sock puppets.

As far as this topic, what is hinted at is a much richer doctrine than simply all children who die before they are accountable are saved and exalted. I believe (as do others that have posted here) that is too simplistic of a view and inconsistent with the rest of the gospel. What we are discussing is how children can be saved and exalted in a way that is consistent with what has been revealed about the gospel and God.

[_jo1952]

Hi Drifting!

CFR please, before I share any comments.

Thanks,

jo

“My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it."
http://www.LDS.org/ensign/1972/07/the-covenant-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

Thank you, Stormy,

That is the quote that came to my mind; I wanted to make sure. If Drifting was thinking of another source, I hope he will provide it.

This was Drifting's comment which is different from the Ensign's quote:

Actually, the Church teaches that you are to follow the Prophets counsel even if you think he is making a mistake.

Here, Drifting is making a different distinction: "even if you think he is making a mistake". I would imagine that God would treat your actions differently if you already thought that by following a Prophet's instructions you would personally knowingly do something wrong. OTOH, if you follow a Prophet's teaching and do something wrong which you did not know was wrong, the Lord indeed WILL bless you for it.

This is in complete agreement with what Jesus taught in the New Testament. Our righteousness is counted in accordance with our faithfulness in doing what we believe is correct, even if what we believe is not correct. Likewise, if we believe we are doing wrong, and still do it, and it turns out that what we believed WAS wrong, then we have not acted in righteousness. Our faithfulness in doing something wrong which we believed was wrong is then held against us.

The example Jesus used was the Pharisees. They were teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. They knowingly did so; and they would be held accountable. However, those who faithfully followed what the Pharisees taught them (even though it was wrong) were okay. They would not be accountable for believing and doing what they believed was correct - even if it was NOT correct. In fact, their faithfulness in following the commandments of men was counted as righteousness!

This is the message which was being taught in the quote you pointed to. In fact, isn't this the message behind the instructions to "test" a Teacher, Apostle or a Prophet? If we test them and determine that their teaching is correct in accordance with what has already been revealed to us as Truth by the Holy Spirit, then in following them (even if it turns out their teaching is false) and being faithful to what they teach is counted as righteousness.

How can this be??? It is because each of us has had a different amount of Truth - different parts of All Truth - which has been revealed to us. So, we are asked to test for false teachers and false prophets (who will ALWAYS be among us). In accordance to what HAS been revealed to us personally, we will make determinations on whether or not we will believe what ANY teacher or ANY prophet tries to teach us. Accordingly, it is our faithfulness in following what we believe is true (whether it really is true or not) is how our righteousness is counted to us. Additionally, it is now easier to understand WHY the more Truth which HAS been revealed to us, then the farther we can fall....the more we are held accountable for.

This is where learning from and being guided by the Holy Spirit becomes so essential to our ability to progress. The more Truth which has been revealed to us, the more we are able to discern who is a false teacher and who is a false prophet (especially because they will always be among us). The minimum requirements of the "test" are very simple!!! As long as ANY teacher or ANY prophet teaches:

1 Cor 15:3-4
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

From this point on, believers will receive whatever Truth they are ready to receive. We are all at different levels of receivings parts of all Truth. As such, our ability to discern false teachers and false prophets will be in accordance with what we have had revealed to us.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO HOLD THE MOST TRUTH??? THEY WIND UP GETTING KILLED BECAUSE THOSE WITH LESS TRUTH REVEALED TO THEM, THINK THAT A TRUE PROPHET IS LEADING THEM ASTRAY (OR WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE BEING TAUGHT TRUTH - EVEN IF IT IS BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT).

It is because people do not understand this very basic teaching which is the cause for all of the strife, the contentions, the divisions, etc., among us. This is why there are so many different denominations, why there was a great apostasy, why there was a Reformation, why there was a need for a Restoration. And yet, we still have not learned....even in the Restored church the same problem exists.

Blessings,

jo

[_Themis]

You are dealing with a complex situation in a simplistic way. That is never a good idea.

I'm happy to agree with Joseph Smith when he is correct in my view. I'm also just as happy to disagree with him when he's mistaken in my view. That just comes with the territory that Joseph Smith was NOT God's sock puppet and so he was mortal and fallible and so am I. The same can be said of the LDS Church. When someone presumes to speak for the Church and says something incorrect in my view, I'll disagree with it. When they teach something that I view as being correct, then I'll agree with them. Again, it is simply because the Church is a man-made organization comprised of fallible men and women and NOT God's sock puppets.

It's nice to see you are making some progress. Sure you believe some things Joseph taught and disagree with some others such as this issue. D&C 137:10 is as clear as you can get on Joseph's views which are claimed as revelation from God.

As far as this topic, what is hinted at is a much richer doctrine than simply all children who die before they are accountable are saved and exalted. I believe (as do others that have posted here) that is too simplistic of a view and inconsistent with the rest of the gospel. What we are discussing is how children can be saved and exalted in a way that is consistent with what has been revealed about the gospel and God.

Sure you have some of your own ideas about what happens to children who die before 8, some of which conflicts with Joseph and the church. Many members do have their own ideas on many issues, even ones that conflict with what Joseph or the church teaches today. You are just more willing then active members to be more public about the ones that will keep you from being considered an active worthy member. I have no problems with that. I don't with TBM's either.

[_Tobin]

You are dealing with a complex situation in a simplistic way. That is never a good idea.

I'm happy to agree with Joseph Smith when he is correct in my view. I'm also just as happy to disagree with him when he's mistaken in my view. That just comes with the territory that Joseph Smith was NOT God's sock puppet and so he was mortal and fallible and so am I. The same can be said of the LDS Church. When someone presumes to speak for the Church and says something incorrect in my view, I'll disagree with it. When they teach something that I view as being correct, then I'll agree with them. Again, it is simply because the Church is a man-made organization comprised of fallible men and women and NOT God's sock puppets.

It's nice to see you are making some progress. Sure you believe some things Joseph taught and disagree with some others such as this issue. D&C 137:10 is as clear as you can get on Joseph's views which are claimed as revelation from God.

D&C 137:10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

I don't believe it is as clear as you seem to think. I believe the Lord is speaking here about children being saved (preserved) in the CK as spirits. The reason for this is they are innocent and so they are spotless and can freely return to be in the presence of God as spirits (unlike you and I). This is not however the Lord discussing what other prophets have touched on including these children eventually being raised during the Millenium and the need they have of doing everything that is required of those that wish to be exalted as resurrected Celestial Beings in the CK.

[_jo1952]

You are dealing with a complex situation in a simplistic way. That is never a good idea.

I'm happy to agree with Joseph Smith when he is correct in my view. I'm also just as happy to disagree with him when he's mistaken in my view. That just comes with the territory that Joseph Smith was NOT God's sock puppet and so he was mortal and fallible and so am I. The same can be said of the LDS Church. When someone presumes to speak for the Church and says something incorrect in my view, I'll disagree with it. When they teach something that I view as being correct, then I'll agree with them. Again, it is simply because the Church is a man-made organization comprised of fallible men and women and NOT God's sock puppets.

As far as this topic, what is hinted at is a much richer doctrine than simply all children who die before they are accountable are saved and exalted. I believe (as do others that have posted here) that is too simplistic of a view and inconsistent with the rest of the gospel. What we are discussing is how children can be saved and exalted in a way that is consistent with what has been revealed about the gospel and God.

Very well said, Tobin.

It is inevitable that the more Truth we receive, the more intolerance and the more persecution we will receive.

So, as Paul said,

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

D&C 137:10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

I don't believe it is as clear as you seem to think. I believe the Lord is speaking here about children being saved (preserved) in the CK as spirits. The reason for this is they are innocent and so they are spotless and can freely return to be in the presence of God as spirits (unlike you and I). This is not however the Lord discussing what other prophets have touched on including these children eventually being raised during the Millenium and the need they have of doing everything that is required of those that wish to be exalted as resurrected Celestial Beings in the CK.

Hi Tobin -

Especially when we consider D&C 130:10-11 wherein we learn that the Celestial Kingdom is NOT the highest Kingdom. The readers need to try to see what all of this really looks like; and not merely accept the superficial first blush appearance of what they think is being said. ALL of scripture MUST be cohesive and without conflict in our interpretations of it. That seems to be where many of the posters are not understanding what it is you are saying.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

Hello Themis:

Neither Tobin or I are saying that these Revelations are incorrect. We are saying that man's interpretation of them is incorrect because their interpretation forces them to throw out other scripture. In other words, they are not looking at the complete picture of all scripture. Thus, they need to adjust their interpretation until their interpretation can include all of scripture without needing to toss any of it aside.

Blessings,

jo

[_Drifting]

Jo, as well as the quote you've already been supplied...

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.

5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.

7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.

11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

Plus we can add to these:
"When the Prophet speaks the thinking has been done."
"When the Prophet speaks the debate is over"
And the lyrics to "Follow The Prophet" which indoctrinated minors in the Mormon practice of blind obedience. And what I mean by that, is that you are allowed to debate what the Prophet counsels as long as the result is "Following The Prophet".

[_Themis]

Hello Themis:

Neither Tobin or I are saying that these Revelations are incorrect. We are saying that man's interpretation of them is incorrect because their interpretation forces them to throw out other scripture. In other words, they are not looking at the complete picture of all scripture. Thus, they need to adjust their interpretation until their interpretation can include all of scripture without needing to toss any of it aside.

Blessings,

jo

Unfortunately you have been shown already how the prophets and church have interpreted these passages. It has been fairly clear and consistent, which on many other issues you don't see this kind of consistency. I know full well how people can interpret anything they want in any way as many like yourself do all the time. If we agree with you then we have the spirit and truth, and if we don't then we are spiritually blind.

[_Franktalk]

And god has chosen the place for the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites - for example.

That is true. We all must learn all about life and death. Right and wrong, strong and weak, etc. So both sides are chosen by God and the lessons are to be learned. There are lessons to be learned in being a victim or a butcher. There are lessons to be learned being a King or a beggar.

Yes. The law: "thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them" not a fun.

After the Romans captured the city of Jerusalem they started to kill all those in the city. They actually got tired of the slaughter and took the rest as slaves. For a butcher this was an act of kindness. Open up your mind to the possibility that there is much going on than what one sees on the surface.

Especially if the scripture is full of this type errors.

It is what you see before you. A simple group of words that never should have lasted this long. But it has. Just what do you think the reason is that a story written by liars has been so talked about for 4000 years? What other book has held the attention of men for so long.

Thank You that You did not do it.

No problem