Steven Covey Lifts up His Eyes in Hell

[_Kishkumen]

First of all, I have to say that I kinda liked Steven Covey on a personal level. Not a perfect guy, but also a decent fellow all around, and even remarkable. Since I am not without sin, I will not cast the first stone here. I am also not a prophet. The difference between the rest of us and James is that he believes with a deep conviction that he is a prophet. I take his commentary in that spirit. Where it rings true to me, I listen. Where it does not, I either ignore it, or on occasion voice my disagreement. I do not consider James my ecclesiastical leader, but I do think he has some spiritually valuable things to say.

I actually think he is correct about the problem with this:

He is famous for saying "If you spend twenty minutes with Christ every day you will spend eternity with him."

When James inveighs against this pablum he has the doctrine of Zion behind him. Covey may be a great guy and an inspiring genius in the world of business, but this is simply wrong.

I think this criticism offered by James is much closer to what the scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon, have to say:

If you do not come unto Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit and repent in the depths of humility you will never spend eternity with Jesus Christ. If you are not visited of the promise of the Father and wrought upon and cleansed by the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost you will not spend eternity with Christ. If you do not approach God submissively in the meekness of the depths of your whole soul and are judged right now today this, your hour of judgment, brought down upon you by your faith in Christ, today, not far off in eternity, if you do not bring the judgement of God down upon your soul in this life and are thereby conceived his seed you will not spend eternity with Christ.

Now, I understand that most folks here do not believe the Book of Mormon and consider it rude to provocatively condemn Covey so soon after his passing. Yeah, it ain't polite. It even looks kinda tasteless. I still think that much of how Covey packaged and sold his ideas is problematic, and it is clear that in this instance he can easily be contradicted by the doctrines taught in the Book of Mormon.

Just my two cents.

ETA: I mean, think of the utter absurdity of Teresa of Avila "penciling in" her Jesus time for the day. The whole "Christianity on a tight schedule" thing is a bit ludicrous, no?

[_Chap]

...
ETA: I mean, think of the utter absurdity of Teresa of Avila "penciling in" her Jesus time for the day. The whole "Christianity on a tight schedule" thing is a bit ludicrous, no?

I don't want to seem combative, and I have no horse in this race since I have no idea who this Covey guy was, and I current believe in and practice no religion at all.

But if someone does have a large number of obligations to fulfill to others in this world (as do most people outside purely contemplative religious orders), then a significant part of the western christian tradition has affirmed the advisability of setting aside specific times for prayer and recollection, in order to avoid them being crowded out altogether. If you had observed the life of the Carmelite order to which Teresa belonged, you would have seen them assembling together for regular communal observances, such as the eucharist and the liturgical hours, as well as carrying out their private devotions.

Some Christians have sought to follow what has been called 'the practice of the presence of God' at all times. But Catholic spiritual directors would, I think, stress that this is not an easy option that allows one to dispense with regular times of prayer and spend all one's time (to outward appearance) at secular work, since the risk is that this may become the inward reality as well.

The point about Covey might be that he got people to spend some time in prayer who otherwise might have spent none.

But as I said, it is all the same to me.

[_Kishkumen]

The point about Covey might be that he got people to spend some time in prayer who otherwise might have spent none.

But as I said, it is all the same to me.

Sure, I get that. I simply find it problematic. I have no doubt that Covey helped many people lead better lives. His approach is not above criticism, however. And I think Nightlion has a real point. But then I am not really a fan of the whole "Christianity for success" thing.

ETA: I would also add that the demands of Zion are extreme in comparison with what most Christians manage to achieve in their daily walk. Nightlion is all about Zion, so I am not surprised to see him criticize Covey.

[_LDSToronto]

The point about Covey might be that he got people to spend some time in prayer who otherwise might have spent none.

But as I said, it is all the same to me.

Sure, I get that. I simply find it problematic. I have no doubt that Covey helped many people lead better lives. His approach is not above criticism, however. And I think Nightlion has a real point. But then I am not really a fan of the whole "Christianity for success" thing.

ETA: I would also add that the demands of Zion are extreme in comparison with what most Christians manage to achieve in their daily walk. Nightlion is all about Zion, so I am not surprised to see him criticize Covey.

Criticism of Covey's teachings is fair game. I mentioned elsewhere that I found his business material kind of shallow and derivative, but I met Covey and found him to be a decent guy. I never read his LDS or Christian-related stuff, though I think we'd all agree that his business writings are not much more than thinly-veiled Christian philosophy.

Condemning the guy to hell? That's a bit too much.

H.

[_madeleine]

...
ETA: I mean, think of the utter absurdity of Teresa of Avila "penciling in" her Jesus time for the day. The whole "Christianity on a tight schedule" thing is a bit ludicrous, no?

I don't want to seem combative, and I have no horse in this race since I have no idea who this Covey guy was, and I current believe in and practice no religion at all.

But if someone does have a large number of obligations to fulfill to others in this world (as do most people outside purely contemplative religious orders), then a significant part of the western christian tradition has affirmed the advisability of setting aside specific times for prayer and recollection, in order to avoid them being crowded out altogether. If you had observed the life of the Carmelite order to which Teresa belonged, you would have seen them assembling together for regular communal observances, such as the eucharist and the liturgical hours, as well as carrying out their private devotions.

Some Christians have sought to follow what has been called 'the practice of the presence of God' at all times. But Catholic spiritual directors would, I think, stress that this is not an easy option that allows one to dispense with regular times of prayer and spend all one's time (to outward appearance) at secular work, since the risk is that this may become the inward reality as well.

The point about Covey might be that he got people to spend some time in prayer who otherwise might have spent none.

But as I said, it is all the same to me.

Nicely said. :)

I will only add, the tendency to split a Christian life from daily activity and encounters with others is suffering from detachment to reality.

Setting aside time for prayer and contemplation is not sinful.

Religious life, monks, nuns, is a vocation. Focused on service to others, prayers for others being one way to serve. Requesting religious community prayers is a very ancient practice. In the modern world most have websites where you can find their addresses, and write requesting prayers for specific intentions.

But, this is not the exclusive life of religious, all Christians are called to the same vocation, service to others as disciples of Christ. In the secular world, this is lived every day at every moment.

The risk is, as always, pride. Life in a monastery has the benefit of the community.Judging the world around you, is not sinful when done in humility. It is pride in judging, that is problematic.

So it is we pray for the souls of the dead, that they may find the same Mercy we ourselves hope to know. Hope having a name, Jesus Christ.

By Thy resurrection from the dead, O Christ, death no longer hath dominion over those who die in holiness. So, we beseech Thee, give rest to Thy servants in Thy sanctuary and in Abraham's bosom. Grant it to those, who from Adam until now have adored Thee with purity, to our fathers and brothers, to our kinsmen and friends, to all men who have lived by faith and passed on their road to Thee, by a thousand ways, and in all conditions, and make them worthy of the heavenly kingdom.

[_Kishkumen]

Criticism of Covey's teachings is fair game. I mentioned elsewhere that I found his business material kind of shallow and derivative, but I met Covey and found him to be a decent guy. I never read his LDS or Christian-related stuff, though I think we'd all agree that his business writings are not much more than thinly-veiled Christian philosophy.

Condemning the guy to hell? That's a bit too much.

H.

Some of Covey's writings are truly inspiring. I have little doubt that he was a decent person. I would not condemn him to hell, certainly.

On another note, I don't ridicule the idea of setting aside time for prayer and contemplation. Keeping a planned schedule is not the kind of thing I would look down on. It's just smart. Having said that, I think Covey's material can be contextualized within America's Gospel of Material Success tradition, which can lead, in my view, to an insipid and watered-down version of Christianity, if not an inversion of its basic tenets. So, I stick by my overall criticism, while admitting that my personal approach to spirituality is not likely to meet with Nightlion's approval any more than Covey's does.

[_Bob Loblaw]

for what it's worth I met Stephen Covey once and he was a nice man and I see no reason to consign the man to hell.

However a prophet like Mr. Muir is a lot more interesting than one who talks about parakeets and widows.

[_Tarski]

From my Facebook page:

James Muir
Steven Covey.............no friend to Jesus. Today, well, as of two minutes, yesterday, was the funeral for Steven Covey. He is famous for saying "If you spend twenty minutes with Christ every day you will spend eternity with him." ??? What the heck does that mean? If you do not come unto Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit and repent in the depths of humility you will never spend eternity with Jesus Christ. If you are not visited of the promise of the Father and wrought upon and cleansed by the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost you will not spend eternity with Christ. If you do not approach God submissively in the meekness of the depths of your whole soul and are judged right now today this, your hour of judgment, brought down upon you by your faith in Christ, today, not far off in eternity, if you do not bring the judgement of God down upon your soul in this life and are thereby conceived his seed you will not spend eternity with Christ. Taking your first twenty minutes of the day to read scripture and pray without accomplishing the real gospel is pointless in spending the rest of eternity with Christ. His sheep are known. If you are not given to come unto him with full purpose of heart and get what Christ suffered and died for to be enabled to raise you up to a state of righteousness you are none of his. Period. Now the rest of you go on and gain the whole world and teach others to excuse themselves from Christ so that they can be the most excellent gainers of all the world with schooled discipline in the arts and sciences of influencing others to cooperate with you and make you rich.

Atta boy Steven you really showed the world how to come unto Jesus Christ. Well, at least you served yourself extraordinarily well. You perverted three generations of LDS numbskulls to eat at your hand the miserable and detestable nuggets of spiritual pollution. That's as deep as your roots got.

James, if there is a God he is not pleased with your post. You have no more right or authority to speak to the question of Covey's fate in the hereafter than does Sarah Palin, Warren Jeffs or your next door neighbor.

I have absolutely no doubt that if you James were to start getting enough followers that your writings could be sold profitably in book form and if people started to pay attention to and revering you James, you would be just as much the business man as Covey and probably a whole lot more deluded.
You are obviously jealous of the reverence he gets as some sort of religious leader. You have a problem with every single other living religious leader. Yet, you clearly long to be the bearded guy on the city wall holding a staff and having everyone look at you (self-righteous narcissism). At least Covey didn't think he was a lone wolf prophet.

As for your teachings, well all I can say is that there are a million and one ways to rationalize the chaotic mess we call the scriptures with themselves and what we see around us. You have for example your little story about homosexuality. This kind of thing can be made up out of whole cloth. I could do it and used to do it. The difference is, you mistake that feeling of self satisfaction you get when you stories and ideas seem to work at first blush with a witness from God. That is foolish. Your ideas should get a B+ for good old boy charm, a B- for creativity, a C for self consistency and a flat out F for factual truth value (your teachings are confabulations and fantasies). It just isn't special. There are boat loads of guys like you out there.

Now we know you are capable of being a giant disrespectful arrogant jerk too. While you seem charming and normal enough on a personal one on one level, when it comes to your religious pronouncements or when you are in "prophet mode" it is quite another matter.
You imagine yourself as being humble before God but I don't think there is a single thing humble about you--at least when you are in this prophet mode. You may as well be claiming to be Christ.

The sentence "I am but God's humble chosen servant" is one of the most ironically arrogant and deluded statements a human being can make.


Like I said, if there is a God he is not pleased with your post. You have no more right or authority to speak to the question of Covey's fate in the hereafter than does Sarah Palin, Warren Jeffs or your next door neighbor.

[Guest]

The guy was a business man, not a GA or a prophet. Personally, I didn't like his books or the way he presented himself. But dumping on the guy like he had some kind of holy calling and then went rogue is way over the top. He was just a business man selling himself and making money.

You are more familiar with the late Covey and might not be aware of the Covey from the early 70s after Spiritual Roots Of Human Relations world devotional tour, after tour, after tour. Any man who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood and gets that much opportunity to preach to all the world IS an apostle as much as the Big 15. None of them are REAL apostles either. And he got all the love too. A trained BYU religion instructor for what that's worth. It was him selling himself as the Mormon Mahatma Buddah where he discovered all his secrets of success. By doing.
Yeah, I got a big problem with the guy. I will expound below.

[_Nightlion]

Just my two cents.

ETA: I mean, think of the utter absurdity of Teresa of Avila "penciling in" her Jesus time for the day. The whole "Christianity on a tight schedule" thing is a bit ludicrous, no?

What a relief that the whole world is not agin' me. It's not the devotional moment I object to. We all could use it. Its the arrogance of thinking that is sufficient, and excellent, even holier than thouish. This belittles Christ in so many ways. He commanded all our hearts, might, mind and strength to come unto him. Watching scripture cartoons is not what he has in mind. Then Susie Porter wonders after investing ten years of timed devotion why God is not near. She doubts and falls away into forbidden paths and is lost. I get as mad about spiritual abuse as most people will admit outrage about child sex abuse. Both defile the innocent.