The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

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_Nightlion
_Emeritus
Posts: 9899
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Nightlion »

Valentinus wrote:
Boilermaker wrote:My hope in universalism comes from belief that God is both just and merciful. I don't see anything just about a system in which people are penalized forever for temporary sins. My background is Mormonism, but I am currently Catholic perhaps on my way back to Mormonism. I also understand that I could be wrong about universalism because I am not God.


I left Mormonism impulsively and am on my way back in. But universalism is probably the one philosophy that is keeping me sane as I make my spiritual journey.

Sorry I failed to include you. You can be the fifth horseman of the apocalrock.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Nightlion
_Emeritus
Posts: 9899
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Nightlion »

mercyngrace wrote:
Nightlion wrote:Interesting this license you take without precedent in scripture. And you seem to capture the rah rah of the crowd validating your wander lust where YOU make all the calls. You claim to follow Christ or go his way or whatever and admit that you do skate over it......for now. How convenient is that? I really do not want to insult you. But if you fail to come unto Christ I reject all your ideas regardless how you strive to dress it up in the accoutrements and habiliments of Joseph Smith.


The rah, rah of the crowd? Where is this crowd you speak of, Nightlion? :lol: The fact that folks are friendly to me doesn't mean they agree with me.

I get rah rah a lot from folks that do not believe me even slightly. And it's kind of nice regardless.

Seriously, who ya gonna offend with Universalism? It sort of writes itself doesn't it? What ever you want you got it!

In all truth you have granted unto yourself the option of getting the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost any where along your journey, in this life of in the next. Since I know how this occurs it is simply NOT FAIR that I had to lay it all on the line and sacrifice all my time and talents and ambition and goals and dreams and prospect and advantages for a wonderfully fulfilling carnal life and undergo the hazzard of being hated and cast out and evil spoken of by all my dear family, friends, church, leaders, and compromised with my wonderful wife's confidence and all my five children who cannot hold to me either against the weight of the entire world that seeks to call good evil and evil good just to keep on winning at life, again, it is NOT FAIR that to obtain the prize and be accepted of God in this world I had to subject ALL unto Christ's name to take his bit into my teeth and go "gee" when he called "gee" and go "hah" when he called "hah" at great personal loss in the honors and bounty of this worlds treasures, and YOU get to breeze along, all, "la de da" scattering sunshine everywhere you go, and trip into the next life where you can EASE on into full subjection and oneness with the Father.


WHAT POOP!

And you're are gonna see eye to eye with the great? I know the parable of agreeing with the master to work for a penny and one works all day in the heat of the day and another only works and hour for the same wage.......yet even these both worked in the same field and there is not inter dimensional shenanigans going on just to open up a door with a million excuses behind it to ease the conscience of the wicked against the day of judgment. In fact, if I am right you have utterly done away with any sort of day of Judgment. Right?
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Boilermaker
_Emeritus
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Boilermaker »

Nightlion wrote:
WHAT POOP!

And you're are gonna see eye to eye with the great? I know the parable of agreeing with the master to work for a penny and one works all day in the heat of the day and another only works and hour for the same wage.......yet even these both worked in the same field and there is not inter dimensional shenanigans going on just to open up a door with a million excuses behind it to ease the conscience of the wicked against the day of judgment. In fact, if I am right you have utterly done away with any sort of day of Judgment. Right?


The Christian Universalists I know believe in God's judgment. They just believe that God's judgment will be designed to bring us closer to Him instead of one in which God gives up on us and banishes us to an everlasting Hell. Christian Universalism believes there will be bad consequences for us when we sin, but because of Jesus' atonement there will always be the opportunity to reverse course and be reconciled. God's judgment will be corrective rather than punitive. Its purpose will be to save us.
_mercyngrace
_Emeritus
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 pm

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _mercyngrace »

Nightlion wrote:Seriously, who ya gonna offend with Universalism? It sort of writes itself doesn't it? What ever you want you got it!


I promise I didn't get any accolades on the LDS Freedom Forum where the mere suggestion that one could even repent in the next life was decried as a Nehorism (D&C notwithstanding). The reception at MDDB was also not enthusiastic although some were willing to discuss the merits of the concept.

In all truth you have granted unto yourself the option of getting the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost any where along your journey, in this life of in the next. Since I know how this occurs it is simply NOT FAIR that I had to lay it all on the line and sacrifice all my time and talents and ambition and goals and dreams and prospect and advantages for a wonderfully fulfilling carnal life and undergo the hazzard of being hated and cast out and evil spoken of by all my dear family, friends, church, leaders, and compromised with my wonderful wife's confidence and all my five children who cannot hold to me either against the weight of the entire world that seeks to call good evil and evil good just to keep on winning at life, again, it is NOT FAIR that to obtain the prize and be accepted of God in this world I had to subject ALL unto Christ's name to take his bit into my teeth and go "gee" when he called "gee" and go "hah" when he called "hah" at great personal loss in the honors and bounty of this worlds treasures, and YOU get to breeze along, all, "la de da" scattering sunshine everywhere you go, and trip into the next life where you can EASE on into full subjection and oneness with the Father.


A couple of points:
1. The gospel isn't about being fair. The gospel is about bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Those who cry out for fairness would do well to remember that the prodigal's elder brother remained outside the feast.
2. God is just. If you follow the path He defines, you arrive at the destination. Period. That is just. Arbitrarily delineating a cutoff date, especially in light of the inequity of when, where, and into what culture we are born on earth would be the act of a capricious God. That god would be unworthy of our allegiance and would cease to be god by the logic of Alma. For mercy would fail to claim the penitent based on nothing more than the passing of an arbitrary deadline?

WHAT POOP!


I respect your right to that erroneous opinion. :biggrin:

And you're are gonna see eye to eye with the great? I know the parable of agreeing with the master to work for a penny and one works all day in the heat of the day and another only works and hour for the same wage.......yet even these both worked in the same field and there is not inter dimensional shenanigans going on just to open up a door with a million excuses behind it to ease the conscience of the wicked against the day of judgment. In fact, if I am right you have utterly done away with any sort of day of Judgment. Right?


"The Great"? Do you mean you? Or is this a reference to God?

I have not done away with a day of judgment. I've simply said that your day of judgment may not be the same day of judgment as everyone else on the planet. If you have experienced the things you claim, then surely you already know that for some judgment comes sooner than others and that this judgment is highly individualized.
"In my more rebellious days I tried to doubt the existence of the sacred, but the universe kept dancing and life kept writing poetry across my life." ~ David N. Elkins, 1998, Beyond Religion, p. 81
_Valentinus
_Emeritus
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:44 am

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Valentinus »

Nightlion,

Go to Barnes & Noble and pick up Love Wins:A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived by Rob Bell. It will change your life.

From the back cover:

"God loves us.

God Offers us everlasting life by grace,
freely, through no merit of our own.

Unless we do not respond the right way.

Then God will torture you forever.

In hell."

Huh?

-Rob Bell
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-Theodore Roosevelt
_Nightlion
_Emeritus
Posts: 9899
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Nightlion »

Boilermaker wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
WHAT POOP!

And you're are gonna see eye to eye with the great? I know the parable of agreeing with the master to work for a penny and one works all day in the heat of the day and another only works and hour for the same wage.......yet even these both worked in the same field and there is not inter dimensional shenanigans going on just to open up a door with a million excuses behind it to ease the conscience of the wicked against the day of judgment. In fact, if I am right you have utterly done away with any sort of day of Judgment. Right?


The Christian Universalists I know believe in God's judgment. They just believe that God's judgment will be designed to bring us closer to Him instead of one in which God gives up on us and banishes us to an everlasting Hell. Christian Universalism believes there will be bad consequences for us when we sin, but because of Jesus' atonement there will always be the opportunity to reverse course and be reconciled. God's judgment will be corrective rather than punitive. Its purpose will be to save us.


Yeah, I recognize spiritual anarchy when I see it. Like you said, judgment is to save you, meaning nothing.

The mistake in Universalism or the logical fallacy is in thinking the prime directive of all things is a focus upon US and not a focus upon God. This guts all authority away from God and delivers anarchy to all which God is FORCED to keep in check until all things some how manage to settle into place and all the little babies stop screaming. God is reduced from a reality to a mere media like jello that will congeal eventually and everyone is fixed happily in eternal jiggles. Universalism puts up an inversion that cannot help but cancel out the one true God. I do not trust that Universalism is concerned with the next life in the least but rather only want to preach up a glad relief for themselves, with the fond expectation that all the strings that they have gathered into one hand are attached to realities in scripture, whereas they are broken stubble having severed truth and lost all connection with the Living God.

You do not want man telling God how things simply must be in order to be fair. Who is man to say what is and what is not fair. Can he see into eternity and comprehend the whole of it? No, he only sees what is before his own face and can only be concerned with immediate needs oblivious to eternal purposes and realities.

You can stay up all night and say up every sort of silliness. Okay. You are free to be free. You have yet to explain competently and some how consistent with some little bit of scripture how Jesus Christ and his works and glory some how apply to Universalism. I say you cannot.

I will probably have to make this same point umpteen different ways before you relent and call me an evil doer.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Valentinus
_Emeritus
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:44 am

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Valentinus »

Nightlion wrote:
Valentinus wrote:I left Mormonism impulsively and am on my way back in. But universalism is probably the one philosophy that is keeping me sane as I make my spiritual journey.

Sorry I failed to include you. You can be the fifth horseman of the apocalrock.


Well!...I never!

How dare you!!
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-Theodore Roosevelt
_Tobin
_Emeritus
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Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Tobin »

Nightlion,

I really don't have much of a problem with MnG's views, especially the part about God's judgements being corrective (and probably in our best interests) and not punative. That is very consistent with the gospel.

However, I do not buy that everyone will eventually get exalted to higher and higher levels of enlightenment. As I've said before, just because you CAN change in the next life doesn't mean you WILL change (that is what repentance really means) and do as the Lord asks. In fact, I believe Satan himself CAN change, but he never WILL change. He rebelled and refused to do as God asked in the very presence of God. And since we have free will, that means that not everyone will progress. We may choose to fall in fact or just stay where we are.

Tobin
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Valentinus
_Emeritus
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:44 am

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Valentinus »

Mr. Nightlion,

Are you even LDS? I don't know what to make of your theological ideas other than that they are totalitarian, elitist, authoritarian and narcissistic.

Thank you.

Valentinus
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-Theodore Roosevelt
_Nightlion
_Emeritus
Posts: 9899
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

Post by _Nightlion »

Valentinus wrote:Nightlion,

Go to Barnes & Noble and pick up Love Wins:A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived by Rob Bell. It will change your life.

From the back cover:

"God loves us.

God Offers us everlasting life by grace,
freely, through no merit of our own.

Unless we do not respond the right way.

Then God will torture you forever.

In hell."

Huh?

-Rob Bell

Just hefting the book up off the shelf is gonna change my life huh? I can do that! :lol: :lol:
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
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